US and Afghan forces continue to target the deadly Haqqani Network in eastern Afghanistan. A series of raids and a clash with the terror network in Ghazni and Logar provinces resulted in 22 fighters killed and two senior commanders captured.
The raids against the Haqqani Network in Khost and Ghazni took place over the course of the past several days.
Last night, an Afghan and Coalition force conducted what the US military described as “a complex mission” in the Giro District of Ghazni province designed to “to disrupt the Taliban network’s operational and logistical support lines of ambush units in the region.”
The combined force took fire when they raided a Haqqani Network compound and seized a cache of weapons and materials to make bombs. The force returned fire which resulted in “several enemy killed and one enemy wounded, and four more captured ” the US military said.
“A number of armed militants fled the compound and were pursued by detachments of the force and killed,” the US military continued. The Afghan military claimed 22 Haqqani Network fighters were killed.
Afghan and US forces also conducted raids on three compounds in Ghazni on July 7 in an effort to disrupt “a key Haqqani commander’s attacks on coalition bases, assassination attempts of Afghan government officials, and the flow of foreign fighters and weapons into the region.” The US military said “several” Haqqani fighters were killed but did not say how many.
US and Afghan forces also raided two Haqqani Network compounds about six miles south of Khost City on July 9. Two Haqqani Network leaders and four associates were captured.
Yesterday’s raids in Khost and Ghazni coincided with a devastating bombing in neighboring Logar province. The Taliban rigged a truck loaded with firewood with a massive amount of explosives, overturned the truck, and detonated when police attempted to clear the crash. Thirteen schoolchildren and four policemen were among 25 killed in the attack, which bears the signature of the Haqqani Network.
Haqqani Network and Mullah Sangeen in the crosshairs
The raids and the Logar bombing were preceded by an assault on a US outpost in Paktika province on July 4. US troops beat back the complex attack and killed 10 Haqqani fighters.
The assault was carried out by members of the Haqqani Network under the command of Mullah Sangeen Zadran. The assault force may have been backed up by the Shadow Army, or Lashkar al Zil, al Qaeda’s paramilitary army that operates along the Afghan and Pakistani border.
The Haqqani Network and Sangeen have been behind some of the most deadly attacks inside Afghanistan. The Haqqanis receive direct support from elements within Pakistan’s Inter-Service Intelligence agency and military.
Mullah Sangeen is a senior lieutenant to Sirajuddin Haqqani and the commander of the Haqqani forces in Paktika province. A US military intelligence official told The Long War Journal that Sangeen also commands forces outside of Paktika and has become one of the most dangerous operational commanders in eastern Afghanistan.
Sangeen took credit for the kidnapping of a US soldier who apparently stepped away from his post at a combat outpost in Paktika on June 30. US forces in eastern Afghanistan have launched a massive manhunt for the soldier.
But the soldier may have already been moved into North Waziristan in Pakistan, where the Haqqani Network controls a large swath of territory.
Over the past month, the US military has targeted Siraj, Sangeen, and the Haqqani Network during a series of raids and airstrikes in both Afghanistan and Pakistan [see LWJ report, Coalition strikes at Haqqani Network in eastern Afghanistan].
Sangeen was almost captured during a May 28 raid on a Haqqani fortress in Paktika province, and on June 23, both Siraj and Sangeen were the targets of US Predator airstrikes inside the Taliban-controlled tribal agency of South Waziristan in Pakistan. Since June 27, the US military has killed and captured dozens of Haqqani Network fighters and a mid-level commander during raids and airstrikes in Paktika, Paktia, and Khost provinces.
55 Comments
Kudos to special ops and Afghan allies. Sounds like a very successful mission. I saw Wolf Blitzer interviewing some Pakistani guy about how they would be willing to act as mediators between us and Mullah Omar… for a price, of course. They want us to side with them in their dispute with India. What would you guys think of that?!!!
Pakis will do anything for money. They dont have an economy of their own. They are basically living off the alms given by US.
Coming to Taliban, I think Taliban have gained a global perspective now. They will continue to the struggle to impose Sharia on the entire world. They might make tactical peace adjustment but I dont think they will give up their struggle.
Pakistan wants to distract us by picking a fight with India, through their state and non-state actors. If they get paid while doing that’s even better. At least that’s their wish. I haven’t seen any western nations buy that and very soon China will stop that too. I don’t understand why Blitzer wants to poke microphone in front of these people. May be it’s just a filler material to keep 24×7 reporting? That’s my guess.
I also think Taliban have gained a global perspective
You guys seems very skeptical about what Pakistan is doing. Let me explain to you:
– Pakistan is not dependent on the money that is coming from America. Revenue generated by Pakistan in one year is around 25 Billion $. The tax that people of Pakistan give to government is 10 Billion $ every year. Having said that 1.5 billion $ given by America is not a life-line for Pakistan. Instead its the money that America give to Pakistan to provide “safe passage” for all the supplies of Nato forces. If Pakistan will not take 1.5 Billion $ from Americans and shut down their supply line America will be spending more to get the supplies to their forces
– Why Pakistan is asking America to push back India? (Be clear Pakistan is not asking America to fight a war with India for it) India is actually supporting terrorist in Pakistan against Pakistani Army. This is why Pakistan has asked America to tell India not to do that
– Thirdly, American don’t know the ground realities in Afghanistan. They want to win the war which just cannot be won. From Alexander to USSR no-one was able to do that. If Obama + Blair will able to do it with so much resistance and not willing to loose many of their men – “it would be miracle of all times”
– Rather than making more enemies Nato forces should make friends now. In Afghanistan its better to make friends rather enemies because if they are your enemies they are worst night-mare you can ever have
Yash ur comments are on target. How many in the West REALLY know wat the islamic fundamentalists want? To know this, and the reality we are in a clash of civilizations is truly scary. Maybe the NATO “allies” that are restricted by ridiculous caveats and ROE’s need a refresher course on the views of islamic fundamentalists? assimilation is not thier goal. thier goal is to eventually dominate Western countries by outpopulating them. Look at the birthrates of indig Europeans and moslems. It will take a while, but they are on thier way.
Ali:
“India is actually supporting terrorist in Pakistan against Pakistani Army.”
Like Mumbai attacks? Though India did not react-in-kind but they will respond in some way/some time of their choosing. I think they are too focused on their economy for the time being…
Here lies in the problem for Pakistan and Pakistanis. There is no cure for the illusion. The economy is broke, fundamentalism/terrorism is rampant, multiple power centers pulling levers and you somehow keep blaming others for your internal issues. That’s not recognizing reality…
NYTimes has an article on Balochistan issue that you should read to see what ails Pakistan. Indians will be reading…
Wake up Pakistanis.
It is true that we do not trust Pakistan. I have read reports that the Pakistani Army is still giving support to Mullah Omar in Baluchistan in return for the Taliban’s help in suppressing the anti-government rebels in that province. In regards to India, it is true that the Pakistanis are not asking us to fight India. They just want us to put pressure on India for what they claim is a just cause, namely Indian controlled Kashmir. Most Americans are not familiar with this dispute. Remember that the Arabs did not see Americans negatively until we began to side with Israel in that conflict. The Israelis also said that they didn’t want Americans fighting for them. The parallels are disturbing. Now Pakistan wants our help against India. We want India as an ally, not as an enemy. We do not need India as an enemy especially since we do not understand what they did wrong. The deeper one examines the history of Pakistan the more uncomfortable Americans feel. We have paid the Pakistanis for the use of their transport. The relationship should end there.
Zotz:
Don’t compare the Arab animosity to the US due to US support for Israel with Pakistan looking for US pressure on India to resolve Kashmir.
What Pakistan would like most as a solution is a plebiscite that allows the kashmiris to determine who they wish to owe sovereignty to – India or Pakistan.
What India wishes to do with Kashmir is analogous in some ways to Israeli occupation of Arab lands, and not to the Arabs.
Allowing the kashmiris the right to determine their own destiny – surely unless all that talk about ‘American values, freedom, and whatnot’ is not hypocrisy, then support for the principle behind the UNSC resolutions on Kashmir, self determination for the Kashmiri people, is something the US shoudl openly support.
It is precisely because of US hypocrisy on issues like Palestine and Kashmir that the US finds itself disliked in the Muslim world.
As in the case of Israel, turning a blind eye to India’s occupation of kashmir and the atrocities committed by her soldiers is justified under the pretext of ‘we need to maintain a relationship with Israel/India as ‘allies’.
Just because a nation claims to be ‘secular/democratic’ does not make it Ok for that nation to illegally occupy and annex territory.
Dear Ali,
If Pak is generating so much income then why does the President and Prime ministers of Pakistans give out statements every second day that if Pak doesnt recieve the money the world will have to face a “broken nuclear power”………
Pak has honoured 9 American diplomats with the highest Pak Civilian awards in the last 7 months. They want to keep USA in good humour and extract money.
May I request you for an answer.
Thanks,
Yash.
Raven:
“Though India did not react-in-kind but they will respond in some way/some time of their choosing. I think they are too focused on their economy for the time being…”
Well Raven, what do you think of Pakistan? Do you think it so damn easy for India to come and strike Pakistan anytime whenever they like to and make the damage of their likes – Pakistan has one of the biggest & finest army in the world. Do you think they will give Pakistan to Indian in plate to eat as much as they want to. It would definitely be a sever reaction back onto India.
My Second point …….
If you talk of Indian doings – Kashmir – for 60 years Indians are killing innocent humans – they have occupied their land which by all means is not just.
In Pakistan, Indians are supporting Talibans by providing them trainings and giving them ammunition. Which has killed thousands of innocent people
Why India is doing all that? Isn’t this all is “State sponsor Terrorism”
& Why America is allowing India to do all that in Afghanistan and why America is just not willing to talk about Kashmir?
Just give me one answer is all this is WRONG or RIGHT?
Don’t compare the Arab animosity to the US due to US support for Israel with Pakistan looking for US pressure on India to resolve Kashmir.
What Pakistan would like most as a solution is a plebiscite that allows the kashmiris to determine who they wish to owe sovereignty to – India or Pakistan.
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OK, maybe we can make a deal. We will tell the Indians to permit a plebiscite vote in Kashmir as you wish. But first Pakistan must allow Baluchistan to have a plebiscite to determine if they wish to be independent. Both plebiscites must have United Nations observers to verify it was a free and fair vote. Does that sound fair?
Well Yash,
The war on terrorism is not started by Pakistan. But Pakistan believe that this terrorism should not flourish in the world and should be stopped.
However Pakistan has gone through lots of damage in this war. The estimated damage to Pakistan infrastructure is around 50 Billion US $.
To fight this war Pakistan needs money. From where Pakistan should get this money. Definitely if Nato is fighting this war along side Pakistan or Pakistan is fighting this war for them they must not only support in terms of money but technology too.
If you think that Pakistan is begging in-front of world. And the world is not ready to provide them 50 + Billion US $. Than Pakistan must fight this war on its own terms. If Pakistan don’t have resources than what the need of fighting this war. Pakistan must shut down the American supply lines and Pakistan must change their policies which creates a perception in Pakistani nation that the government is inclined toward America. And the terrorist using this reason attack within Pakistan. They must get-rid of all this mess.
I would like to see your comments on this.
I would like to see Ali and MZBH comment on Chinese action against Uihjurs. They are muslims too. Should Pakistan support their fellow Muslims against atheist communist China who even clamped down on Friday prayers last week. Religious practice in general is suppressed in China. I personally know members of Communist party of China who have utter contempt for religion, especially Islam and Christianity.
I am sure the Pakistanis are ready to abandon their neighboring Muslims in Xinjiang.
The following years should be interesting. There is evidence from Ahmed Rashid that some Muslim Uighurs fighting in Xinjiang were trained in the same areas in Pakistan and PoK (at the same time) as Kashmiri terrorists.
USA is a democracy, that does not mean it has to support democracy across the world. Foreign policy is based on interests, not idealism, though sometimes it not so perfectly adhered to.
Dear Ali,
Even before the “war on terror” started according to IMF Pak was on the verge of Bankruptcy. Infact it was the money given by America to General Musharaff as a part of “war on terror” led to the false econmical growth in Pak.
Participation of Pak in “war on terror” is a big farce. This has been acknowledged by the prolific Pak writers like Najam Sethi, Kamran Shafi, Shuja Nawaz, Irfan Hussain, Ayesha Siddiqui..etc. They have written numerous articles as to Pak army is fighting groups that are inimical interests to Pak interests and where as it is supporting groups that send murderers to Afghanistan and India. Murderers like Hafiz Saeed, Dawood Ibrahim are under the protectice custody of ISI and the operate openly in Pak. They dont go under hiding, they hold meeting in which thousands of people participate and they give sermons to kill Christians and Hindus. Which civilised country will have a self confessed terrrorist like Hafeez Saeed operating openly.
Coming to Kashmir, now there are 3 parties involved Pak, India and China. Pak gave a part of Kashmir to China. If there has to be a plebiscite, it has to be there in all the 3 regions of Kashmir not just India. Pak doesnt have the moral right to talk about Kashmir after it gave a chunk to China.
Thanks,
Yash
Zotz:
“But first Pakistan must allow Baluchistan to have a plebiscite to determine if they wish to be independent.”
And why is that? Is Baluchistan recognized in the UN as ‘disputed territory’ and does it have UNSC resolutions calling for a plebiscite allowing the people of Kashmir to determine their future status?
Lets not make absurd arguments just because US hypocrisy on Kashmir was pointed out. There are UNSC resolutions on Kashmir and it is recognized as disputed territory – Baluchistan is not.
Beg to differ.
Wars have indeed been won in Afghanistan. Afghanistan itself has been conquered and held by invading armies several times. The non-existence of the Bamian Buddah’s is mute testimony to this simple truth. That Allah is the regional name for God is still more evidence of the fact.
But all of that is quite irrelevent. That was then. This is here and now. It’s a new game, with a 21st century team the power of which the world has never seen before against a team pulled kicking and screaming out of the seventh century.
The Talib have had eight years to drive the Coalition out of Afghanistan and in this they have failed miserably. Now fueled by drug money, all they have succeeded in doing so far is to massacre yet another generation of young Afghan’s and Pakistani’s. There’s got to be a better way.
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All those billions of dollars flowing into Pakistan, yet millions of Pakistanis live in abject poverty. Why is that?
DON’T BELIEVE
A WORD,
R
Xavier:
“I would like to see Ali and MZBH comment on Chinese action against Uihjurs”.
Why?
I am Pakistani, and my comments are related to the internationally recognized disputed territory of J&K, and my comments on Kashmir are over the UNSC resolutions calling for the people of the disputed territory of Kashmir to be given the right to choose their destiny.
Instead of dissembling and trying to divert the discussion, it would be far easier to accept that if the US really stands for all that ‘values and freedom’ claptrap, then the honorable and correct thing for the US to do would be to unequivocally support the PRINCIPLE of self determination for the kashmiris, and sanction a nation that outright refuses to implement that principle (that India agreed to on almost every single UNSC resolution on Kashmir), and tries to forcibly annex that territory.
Ali:
Your illusion continues. Blame all before you look in to your own makings. That was my point. But no Pakistani has ever gotten that and you didn’t buck that trend either.
Pakistan using and used Taliban as their security arm for a long time (ever since 1989?). That’s your country’s self-interest and you have the right. Remember other countries have theirs too. You are in a geo-political game… so play accordingly. Taliban is your kid and if they are out of control, your should have clipped their wings. Now that US/NATO is involved, I don’t think Pakistan can control the agenda any longer.
I see your “second point” as the same as first one. So make them one and blame others.
@ my fellow xavier,
Let me blunt here –
Do you know why people around the globe hate America for – Among many of the reason there is one reason that I will give you below:
If you talk about Chines’s Province Uihjurs, Pakistan’s Baluchistan & recent Iranian crises, terrorist acting inside Russia
– it is very clear to everyone now that all this is planned activities of CIA to destabilize these countries. Now the question is how they do that – They first of all create small group with this kind of ideology of hatred or they bribe some people for forwarding their agenda, then they help them secure their positions within these regions and provide them with arms and money. And then they use them to destabilize the countries.
– When we in Pakistan knows that CIA is responsible for all that in China and is the same they are doing with us. We think to deal with CIA created problems is to act united.
– We in Pakistan don’t hate people for what kind of religion other have. And we support every right action.
The internationally recognized and quite illegal Pakistani invasion of Kargil in 1999 put an end to any Pakistani claims of legitimacy in Kashmir. Although those claims had already ceased to be relevant after Pakistan had ceded almost 8% of Kashmir to China, in 1962. Will Pakistan be demanding a plebiscite in the Chinese held areas of Kashmir as well?
Pakistani demands for a plebiscite in Kashmir should be met only by equal demands for such a similar plebiscite in Baluchistan. You want Kashmir and you can’t even control the FATA? You want more mouths to feed and you already have millions living in abject poverty? How about stay on your side of the UN-mandated (is this the “international recognition you seek?) LOC and worry about what you have right now? Is that too difficult a concept?
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Ali- If they hate us so much, why are they still coming here? It is not clear that the CIA is currently acting to “destabilize”
Where is Kashmir fitting into this dialogue and why now?
If its anything to do with CNN’s recent reports, i have read a pretty detailed interview with gen. abbas which refers to pak concerns of india’s “over-invlovement”in afghanistan…..but no mention of kashmir. At least not in the context of that grand offer by pak to bring mullah omar to the negotiating table, which i’m sure has got not just holbrooke and co but all of america as excited as if this was the best birthday present they could have had!
link in to the interview http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/asiapcf/07/10/pakistan.taliban.omar.interview/index.html
turning to kashmir and such self-righteous comments like MZBH “Just because a nation claims to be ‘secular/democratic’ does not make it Ok for that nation to illegally occupy and annex territory.” and if the US really stands for all that ‘values and freedom’ claptrap ”
Very rich comment from a man in a country where half the territories have long remained lawless. And the other half spends its time blaming the US, india and the rest of the world for its problems. Constantly justifying its own adventurous actions and inactions, but ironically with little sense or practice of justice within its own sovereign nation.
And those who are waiting for the pak army to get them out of their mess, forget it. You can say what you want, do what you will, the army implemented this mess, they are part of the problem, not part of the solution. Thats one of the reasons why the afghan war became the Afpak war and one of the reasons why drones will drone and hellfire wil rain. And this is just the the beginning the new AFPAK OCO movie. . .
May you live in interesting times! i learnt something new today–it is a misnomer that this is a chinese proverb at all. But wikipedia suggests that it may be related to the Chinese proverb, “It’s better to be a dog in a peaceful time than be a man in a chaotic period”.
I agree with Raven, Render, Rhyno and X(Xavier), Y(Yash) Z(Zotz).
I disagree with the conspiratorial propaganda of Ali and the patriot-victim proclamations of MZBH.
Midnight is missing, but thats ok, i would’ve missed his message anyway! LOL
MZBH
“It is precisely because of US hypocrisy on issues like Palestine and Kashmir that the US finds itself disliked in the Muslim world.”
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Have i told you lately…..that the world is not exactly in love with pakistan. Sorry to give you the breaking news here but i guess they don’t send Dear John letters anymore!
Still its never too late to get a good look at the mirror; maybe terrorists don’t bother with those things?!
Render:
“The internationally recognized and quite illegal Pakistani invasion of Kargil in 1999 put an end to any Pakistani claims of legitimacy in Kashmir. Although those claims had already ceased to be relevant after Pakistan had ceded almost 8% of Kashmir to China, in 1962. Will Pakistan be demanding a plebiscite in the Chinese held areas of Kashmir as well?”
Your post was pretty much in line with what is to be expected from the apologists of occupation and usurpation of peoples rights and defenders of hypocrisy, especially that of the US.
The invasion of Siachen BY INDIA (1984) in violation of the Simla agreement and the ceasefire at the time was the casting of the first stone – if you wish to criticize kargil ,you have to criticize the Indian invasion of Siachen first – but then that would take away one more pretext for defending the US’s hypocritical stance.
As for a plebiscite in Aksai Chen, go ahead – at the time of the Pakistan-China accord on Aksai Chen, the region was barren and unpopulated, not sure whether the residency situation has changed since …
None of this takes away from the principle of self determination for the people of J&K that the UNSC resolutions endorsed and India and Pakistan agreed to, only for Nehru to violate his commitments and back out.
Viliger:
“such self-righteous comments like MZBH “Just because a nation claims to be ‘secular/democratic’ does not make it Ok for that nation to illegally occupy and annex territory.”
So you think that illegally occupying and annexing territory and a people is perfectly acceptable?
And to criticize occupation and forced annexation is ‘self-righteous’?
I don’t think any more need be said about your moral depravity.
Render
“All those billions of dollars flowing into Pakistan, yet millions of Pakistanis live in abject poverty. Why is that?”
I assume you are referring to the ‘ten billion aid’ canard again.
Almost 6 billion of that was in the form of reimbursements for logistical support provided by Pakistan to the US – the remainder was split up between 1.5 billion in debt write off, military aid and budgetary support (and perhaps some other smaller categories that slip my mind).
The largest chunk of six billion was therefore not any ‘free money’ for Pakistan.
On the poverty issue – Pakistan’s poverty rate is 24%, India’s is 25% (CIA factbook figures for 2008). According to the World bank’s latest estimate (being studied by the GoP) the Pakistani poverty rate fell to 17%.
So how is it that with billions of dollars of investment, and, according to people like you, the favorable part of the partition, India has a significantly larger number and percentage of poor than does Pakistan?
At 25%, that’s 1.5 times the population of Pakistan that is impoverished in India!
Ali,
Nice conspiracy theories. CIA behind every instability in the region. That’s funny. Also you claim many in the world hate America. Actually not many hate America. We are powerful. Its not practical to hate a powerful country and people usually don’t. If you want to to say most people in the world hate USA show me some statistics.
MZBH, USA stands for its interests, that is practical interests. Sorry no idealism here.
Kashmir(only valley not entire JK) became disputed only after illegal Pakistani invasion in 1947. It remained calm until Pakistan directed the then available mujahiden fighters against India killing innocent civilians in JK. Of course Indian security forces had their share of violence but they did not start it.
For us in the West, we are eagerly welcoming the new era where the West does not have to solve the Islamic militancy(AQ, Taliban, Pakistani/PoKashmiri terrorist groups, Uzbek terrorist groups) problem in the region. We hope communist China will now recognize the Islamic terrorism problem and take care of it. Xinjiang is the starting point.
MZBH
“I don’t think any more need be said about your moral depravity.”
=================================
Too true. Read the truth in what T Ruth said above “Still its never too late to get a good look at the mirror; maybe terrorists don’t bother with those things?!”
You talk about ‘values’, ‘freedom’ and ‘principles’. Maybe you can show us where we can look for these items in Pakistan!
Pakistan has for decades been a state sponsor of terror. Having lost your global credibility , please ‘get it’ you have lost the kashmir battle diplomatically.
And now that your terrorism has turned inward,
recognise you are looking over the wrong shoulder. Rather than worrying about the Line of Control, you should focus on your Lines of No Control. Else the US/Nato will have to do the job for you–somebody has to deal with your blotspots of WANA, FATA –lovely names!–etc.
Don’t worry about my morals, don’t get hysterical every time you hear the word kashmir and don’t get lost in history. Come to where the flavor is, come to Wazoo country.
Pakistan version 1 came with East Pakistan, Pakistan version 2 was without, Pakistan version 3?
Whatever it is, it will be without kashmir, so you may as well get on with it!
In my previous comment I meant to say :
It remained calm until 1989 when Pakistan directed the then available mujahiden fighters(free after Afghan war) against India killing innocent civilians in JK.
Viliger:
“Still its never too late to get a good look at the mirror; maybe terrorists don’t bother with those things?!”
Perfect! When confronted with US hypocrisy, shift to ad hominems and try and stifle opposition with the old ‘terrorist’ canard.
Since you chose not to refute my post, moral depravity seems about right, both in your case and that of the US. But that was obvious with US shenanigans with ‘Manifest Destiny’ and the chaos sown in Latin America by the US.
“Pakistan has for decades been a state sponsor of terror.”
Oh have we really? So what was support for the brutal regime of the Samoza’s in Nicaragua? Support for the Guatemalan regime that committed a genocide of the indigenous population in Guatemala? Support for brutal dictators overthrowing elected governments in Chile, Argentina …. you get the picture don’t you.
Pakistan supported the rise of the Taliban (a regime and situation the US was agreeeable to, if not directly aiding, and attempted to influence with regards to obtaining favorable contracts for its corporations piping oil and gas from the CAR’s). Pakistan also supported the insurgency in Kashmir in the 90’s, after India had occupied Siachen in violation of the Simla accord, as well as broken apart Pakistan through support for an insurgency in East Pakistan.
India also created and supported the LTTE, and supported the Northern Alliance warlords and criminals as proxies against Pakistan in Afghanistan, plus the support for the Baluch insurgencies.
Terrorism all of it, by the US and India, correct?
With all these adages being thrown around, here is another one, ‘people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones, especially when yours already has a million cracks in it.’
“Pakistan version 3”
We managed to get 45% of J&K, so Pakistan will not be without Kashmir regardless of whether the hypocritical west continues to appease India’s illegal occupation and annexation of the remainder of the territory.
I would try and get a moral compass, and a life, instead of bandying about inane threats against nations on a blog.
Xavier:
“MZBH, USA stands for its interests, that is practical interests. Sorry no idealism here.”
Oh I understand that – the US stands for its interests whether they trample upon the rights and aspirations of others countless times. As I said in a previous post – that is patently clear from manifest destiny and the events in Latin America etc.
But I am not the one with the rhetoric of being a nation that is the standard bearer for ‘freedom, democracy and rights of all people’ – that rhetoric is all out of the US. There is a simple enough answer to end this debate, and you are halfway there, accept that the US is hypocritical and greedy, and has ruined the lives of millions through ‘acting for its interests’ (much as the Nazi’s did in a way – its all about ‘interests’ if the ends justify the means).
===============
Kashmir(only valley not entire JK) became disputed only after illegal Pakistani invasion in 1947. It remained calm until Pakistan directed the then available mujahiden fighters against India killing innocent civilians in JK. Of course Indian security forces had their share of violence but they did not start it.
==============
The UN went over all of this, heard the arguments on both sides, and issued various resolutions, each becoming more specific than the prior. India agreed to all of these, and the principle of self-determination. Nehru proudly and loudly proclaimed that he would hold a plebsicite to allow the Kashmiris to determine their destiny, and then in the fifties he backed out of all his commitments in the UN, held elections in J&K and essentially said that India would accept the status quo, and nothing else.
Pakistan’s support for the insurgency in Kashmir in the nineties/late eighties came about AFTER India had closed the doors to resolving the dispute in the manner agreed upon in the UN, AFTER India’s destabilization of East Pakistan through support for insurgents there and military intervention to break it away, and AFTER India’s invasion of Siachen in violation of the Simla accords.
India had already laid a pretty broad template for transgressions against Pakistan before Pakistan supported the insurgency, so blaming Pakistan for choosing a covert option to force India to the negotiating table over Kashmir is disingenuous to say the least.
I’ve allowed the conversations to wander but I won’t tolerate personal attacks. Everyone, consider it your warning.
MZBH said:
“Zotz:
“But first Pakistan must allow Baluchistan to have a plebiscite to determine if they wish to be independent.”
And why is that? Is Baluchistan recognized in the UN as ‘disputed territory’ and does it have UNSC resolutions calling for a plebiscite”
OK. How about a plebiscite in FATA? As long as we are having plebiscites in all disputed regions of the world, why leave FATA behind? After all, the Durand line is not recognised by Afghanistan either?
MZBH says “Pakistan’s support for the insurgency in Kashmir in the nineties/late eighties came about AFTER India had closed the doors to resolving the dispute in the manner agreed upon in the UN,”
You may try to fool us as much as you want. So the resolutions were passed in UN and decades later suddenly in 1989 Pakistan decided to incite violence in JK. Sorry what actually happened was that Pakistan trained and armed mujahedins to fight against USSR and when the war was over in 1989 they started using the then jobless mujahedins to incite violence in JK.
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USA(because of its constitution) is still standard bearer of freedom, democracy and rights of people. But US constitution is applicable only within US. The constitution can not be enforced elsewhere. If someone wanted freedom, democracy and rights of people the first starting point is to at least take inspiration from US constitution and incorporate the values in their const. India for example has done this. No bias against any religion in Indian constitution just as its source US const. I can not say that about many countries discussed here.
People may complain as much as they want but US is the last guard against Islamic terrorism engulfing the world.
MZBH –
You wrote: “Your post was pretty much in line with what is to be expected from the apologists of occupation and usurpation of peoples rights and defenders of hypocrisy, especially that of the US.”
Dude40000:
“OK. How about a plebiscite in FATA? As long as we are having plebiscites in all disputed regions of the world, why leave FATA behind? After all, the Durand line is not recognised by Afghanistan either?
Just because the Afghans dispute the Durand does not make it so. Their agreement with the British stands as international law suggests that agreements between two states stand valid in case of successor states as well.
They are also welcome to take their case to the UN and see if it endorses the demand of a plebiscite, in which case an argument in favor of a plebiscite in FATA is justified – otherwise there is no comparison to be made between FATA and J&K.
Xavier:
“You may try to fool us as much as you want. So the resolutions were passed in UN and decades later suddenly in 1989 Pakistan decided to incite violence in JK. Sorry what actually happened was that Pakistan trained and armed mujahedins to fight against USSR and when the war was over in 1989 they started using the then jobless mujahedins to incite violence in JK.”
Read my post again –
Pakistan’s support for the insurgency in Kashmir in the nineties/late eighties came about AFTER India had closed the doors to resolving the dispute in the manner agreed upon in the UN, AFTER India’s destabilization of East Pakistan through support for insurgents there and military intervention to break it away, and AFTER India’s invasion of Siachen in violation of the Simla accords.
India had already laid a pretty broad template for transgressions against Pakistan before Pakistan supported the insurgency, so blaming Pakistan for choosing a covert option to force India to the negotiating table over Kashmir is disingenuous to say the least.
These are the facts, the only ‘fooling’ going around is your attempt to try and avoid answering the above. And the Mujahideen were trained and funded by the CIA and Saudis as well – in fact Pakistan probably had little to do with funding them, since we did not have the resources of the US and Saudis.
Render:
“My comment was based on historical and well documented (if not exactly well known) facts.
There is little point in wasting the time of the LWJ readers with the propaganda of those who hate the West merely for the sake of hatred.”
Facts? Hogwash, and easily shown as such by this line of yours, “then from the Indian Union that those people freely joined for protection from those people who came to steal their water.”
Xavier:
“USA(because of its constitution) is still standard bearer of freedom, democracy and rights of people. But US constitution is applicable only within US. The constitution can not be enforced elsewhere. If someone wanted freedom, democracy and rights of people the first starting point is to at least take inspiration from US constitution and incorporate the values in their const. India for example has done this.”
So you are suggesting that the democracy and values and freedom are only applicable within the US, and the US is free to support all manners of dictators and repressive and genocidal regimes that do the opposite of what the US constitution states, so long as those regimes help US interests in some way?
This is pretty obvious from US support for people like Mubarak in Egypt, the Gulf Royals, Shah of Iran, Saddam, and despots in Latin America – but just wanted to clearly state it.
Its like saying that I am going to treat my immediate family fairly, but rob, cheat, deceive and even endorse the killing of others, so long as I benefit.
And the Indians have not yet allowed the UN to conduct a free and fair plebiscite to allow the Kashmiris to determine their future status, so I do not see how they can be considered to have respect for the values espoused in the US constitution, nor any respect for their bilateral and international commitments – the UNSC resolutions in this case.
Well guys, there are so much to read here ….
I accept that you guys are right
– Kashir & Palestine issues should not be resolved and India & Isreal should keep killing Muslims there – its there birth right to kill Muslims
– America must attack Iran kill Muslims in Iran
– America should make Iraq & Afghanistan their colonies and take the resources from there for their country
– CIA must continue with their plan to disintegrate Pakistan, de-neuclarize Pakistan and in the end attack the country like Afghanistan and Iraq. Kill Muslims there too and make it their colony
– America must attack Syria, kill Muslims and make it their colony too
– Must take a control of the rest of the region especially Saudi Arab to have regimes which are ready to give away their country integrity along with resources to america
I am totally on your side – DO IT –
LETS “HOPE” IF WE GET THE PEACE IN THE WORLD THIS WAY
But don’t complain back if these Muslims reacted to all this. As you complaining why people are perusing freedom fight in Kashmir – according to you they are TERRORIST
Please I don’t want to hear any comments from you guys any more.
MZBH:
“They are also welcome to take their case to the UN and see if it endorses the demand of a plebiscite, in which case an argument in favor of a plebiscite in FATA is justified – otherwise there is no comparison to be made between FATA and J&K.”
Somehow the talk of “let the UN decide” talk coming from a Pakistani which harbours terrorist organisations LeT and JuD (as per UN resolutions) and their leaders doesn’t sound right.
Wow,
What an interesting example of how 2 peoples can look at the same things and see 2 opposites. While it is good to have differing points of view and for one to defend themselves from percieved attacks may I suggest a bit more care in doing so. Why?
If I just read the comments here and knew nothing but what I am told in them I would have to conclude one thing! The Packistani nation is hapless, helpless, and incompetent. Based upon what I have been told here NOTHING in packistan is the result of ANYTHING done by Packistani people. EVERYTHING is someone elses doing. And this apparantly has gone on for 30 years or even more. I have been told the US, the CIA, the Indians, the afgans, and who knows who else are to BLAME for ALL of Packistans ills.
Maybe the taliban should take it over at least they take credit for what they do, good and bad.
Sadly, I thought packistan was actually pretty advanced compared to many nations. But since I learned all this today I see the facts. It is helpless and incapable of self rule.
I am still trying to figure out though, what are all the resources in Afganistan and Packistan we in the US must covet so much that we are doing all these things I learned today
Ali,
Interesting considering muslims kill muslims in quite large numbers than anyone else killing them. Look at how many trivial deviations carry death penalty in Islam, including leaving Islam, and how many muslims were killed by AQ/Taliban/Iran in Iraq/Afg/Pak/Iran. Now one wonders if this is a culture of death.
Mr. Roggio, I want to be respectful but let the truth be told and I want to respond to Ali’s comments.
Ali, don’t get emotional. Read the history of Islam. Since its inception it spread through wars(read history, also read Samuel Huntington for recent history). The entire Zorastrian culture was wiped off by Islam. Luckily the West was strong enough to counter this barbarism and the West eventually figured out a way to keep religion out of politics, some 300 years ago.
One reason why you many think Muslims are victimized is the uncontrolled population growth in Islamic countries. Almost all highly fertile(# of children per woman) populations are Islamic.
We in the West have realized the problem of breeding and people can control their numbers such that the available resources are enough for each citizens’ comfortable living. We value life and want to avoid suffering. That is why we do not have breeding, neither do we (legally allow) have stoning, lashes, beheading, honor killing, abuse of women etc. We deal things in a civil manner.
May be you know all these, but jealous of our civilization.
Dear Bobk,
Dawn news conducted a survery in Pakistan about who committed 9//1 and mumbai attacks. It is amazing that 75% of Pakistan believe that 9/11 was perpetrated by Americans and Mumbai Attacks by Indians to find an excust to attack the Muslim world!!!!!!!!
In the aftermath of Mumbai attacks Pak Army spokesperson held a press conference and said Baitaullah Mehsud, Mullah Fazlullah and all other Talibans are patriots and they will fight the external forces alongside the Pak Army !!!!!
So you can see that Pak is an intelluctually retarded nation.
Thanks,
Yash.
dude40000:
“Somehow the talk of “let the UN decide” talk coming from a Pakistani which harbours terrorist organisations LeT and JuD (as per UN resolutions) and their leaders doesn’t sound right.”
The UN resolutions on the JuD call for the group to be banned, and not for a particular fate for Hafiz Saeed.
The trial of the 6 main accused (including the two masterminds Lakhvi and Shah) is about to start soon. And India herself is taking her own sweet time prosecuting what should be an open and shut case against Ajmal Kasab, so lets not point fingers at Pakistan for ‘slow prosecutions’ just yet.
Nor would I expect the judiciary to be pliant to the GoP, since they have challenged the GoP on several critical issues recently.
Xavier,
So you think Islam as a religion promote war? If it do what you and I can do about it.
Isn’t the world is going into the clashes of civilizations or clashes of religions.
If thats the case America is in war with Islam. And this long war is actually against Islam. And your politicians are lying that this war is not against Islam but their actions proves that it is. Isn’t it.
BobK
Can you answer me that Why America is running away from Iraq and your President is talking about the exit strategy in Afghanistan.
Although in Iraq terrorist groups are there and Taliban are much more stronger in Afghanistan right now too.
Havent America lost their war in Muslim World?
The ISI is P-stan’s WORST enemy. No moslem country is going to take on China either. Blame who you want, but it comes down to fear of the unknown and ethnicity in China. The CIA is NOT responsible for everthing that goes on. Look in the mirror, why don’t you?
BobK
Can you answer me that Why America is running away from Iraq and your President is talking about the exit strategy in Afghanistan.
First, I dont believe we are running away from iraq. We just anounced deployment of 4 brigades for iraq this year to maintain 130,000 troops in theater.
DEMOCRATS always talk exit strategy and “cant do it”, “cant win”, type stuff. I ignore it as much as I can. Its in the DNA I think
Since Bill asks we refrain from politics that is as far as I will go with that……
MZBH:
“The UN resolutions on the JuD call for the group to be banned, and not for a particular fate for Hafiz Saeed.”
So, you genuinely believe that the head of a terrorist organization should be allowed to roam free. Nice. Thanks for the pearls of wisdom.
Personally, I believe we should blame the CIA for everything, unless of course it was the State Departments fault. Than again we could blame Dick Cheney, the Indians, Shiites, Tajiks, the Chinese, or any random Jewish conspiracy.
Did I leave anyone out? How about Knights Templar?
On second thought, I have a truckload of weeds to take to the city compost pile. I think I’ll do that instead.
Ali
————————————————————–
So you think Islam as a religion promote war? If it do what you and I can do about it.
Isn’t the world is going into the clashes of civilizations or clashes of religions.
If thats the case America is in war with Islam. And this long war is actually against Islam. And your politicians are lying that this war is not against Islam but their actions proves that it is. Isn’t it….
Havent America lost their war in Muslim World?
————————————————————
Since you like Question and Answer so much and you appear to have missed my previous questions for you, let me ask again.
Are the Taliban, Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda, SSP etc Muslims?
Check out the websites by the highlu educated Pakistanis. They are finding a Jewsih Consipracy in the Chinese killing of Uighurs. The guy writing all these fictious stories was decortated by Musharraf as the best journalist of the country…
>
>
Thanks,
Yash.