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Iraqi and Coalition forces Order of Battle as of March 31, 2009. |
The April 2009 updates to the Iraqi Security Forces Order of Battle are now available at the ISF OOB homepage. The significant changes to the Order of Battle that occurred in March are summarized below.
The Budget Crunch.
The impact of Iraq’s national budget crunch on the Iraqi Security Forces has been serious. On March 8, the Government of Iraq’s spokesman, Dr. Al-Dabbagh said:
“I want to say that we have problems with the budget because of the oil. We — The Iraqi (inaudible) the Council of Representatives are trying through — by restructuring the, the budget, to, to fulfill all our needs. There are — certain sectors are not going to get affected. One of them is the purchasing of equipment and the expansion of the Iraqi Security Forces because it’s a big responsibility, which we have a big responsibility which is taking over the security responsibility after the American forces leaving Iraq. And we have to have the right number of equipment in order to have — be self-reliant and self-sufficient — and after 2011.”
However, this shielding does not apply to personnel. There has been a hiring freeze in all services for the last six months. New units have been formed by reorganizing and re-assigning personnel within the Iraqi Security Forces. The intentional 120-135 percent recruiting authorization for Iraqi Army combat units was terminated. Those over-strength units have been transferring personnel to form new units. The Sons of Iraq recruitment into the Iraqi Security Forces has been frozen. In October 2008, the Iraqi Army suspended Basic Combat Training after it surpassed its mandated manpower authorization. Boot camp has not been resumed since. The expansion of Ministry of Interior Emergency Police continues, but it is a reorganization of local Iraqi Police between paramilitary units and local police. The Iraqi Special Operations Forces (ISOF) has personnel who passed the selection course but:
“The ISOF brigade currently has 824 soldiers who passed the Selection Course in May 2008 but cannot be added to the official rolls due to the hiring freeze. These personnel would be sufficient to bring all units to full operational capability by July 2009 and complete force generation. However, the ISWCS [Iraqi Special Warfare Center and School] has encountered persistent difficulties obtaining support from the MoD [Ministry of Defense] for ammunition, equipment, and pay for the trainees, causing courses to be postponed. Failure to resolve the funding issue for the 824 Selection graduates is already having a significant impact on INCTF’s [Iraqi National Counter Terrorism Force] sustainment capability. INCTF advisors have made this a priority in the months ahead.”
The Government of Iraq has also canceled the use of previous years funding in the current year. This means that any ministry that did not spend its 2008 budget lost the unobligated portions when it reverted back to the central government reserves at the end of the year. This included the security forces.
Throughout the latest 9010 Quarterly Report to Congress, the impact of the Iraqi budget crisis is the single most prevalent theme. There are two factors to consider when considering the input from the 9010 Report. The information in the report pre-dates the passing of the 2009 Iraqi budget and the reporting deals only with Iraqi Security Force elements that are officially recognized by US forces. Multi-National Security Transition Command-Iraq’s (MNSTC-I) force generation section does not officially recognize the existence of the 17th Iraqi Army Division and Kurdish Regional Guards (KRG) units. The operational side of Multi-National Force-Iraq (MNF-I) does recognize the 17th Iraqi Army Division, but also does not deal with the Kurdish Forces except at the highest levels. “MNSTC-I does not have a relationship with KRG. There is a dialogue with counterparts in MoD/MoI, KRG, and MNF-I.” Thus the data submitted to the public reports omits these forces and recognizes only 13 Iraqi Army Divisions in their Iraqi force projections.
The budget crunch and the resulting hiring freeze probably explain why the Kurdish 15th and 16th Divisions have been mustered, but not become part of the Iraqi Army. The hiring freeze started the same time these two divisions were to be commissioned into the Iraqi Army.
Iraqi Arms Purchases.
The 9010 Quarterly Report to Congress also noted the difference in budgetary practices between the Iraqi Ministry of Defense (MoD) and the Ministry of Interior (MoI):
“The most significant difference between the MoD and the MoI budget execution success-and the reason the MoI is realizing greater progress-is that the MoI effectively delegates decision-making authority, including areas of budget execution, contracting, and hiring. In contrast, all management decisions within the MoD (e.g. approving all but very minor facility maintenance and all contracting requirements) must be approved by the Minister of Defense, and in some cases, by the Prime Minister. Until this process is replaced with delegated decision making, MoD’s acquisition, force management, and logistics processes will continue to be hampered. Despite these challenges, both ministries achieved a near 100% budget execution for 2008. However, the increasing public friction between the Minister of Interior and the Prime Minister may produce unintended or unforeseen consequences in MoI functionality.”
Since the 2009 Iraqi budget passed, several purchases have been announced:
• General Dynamics Land Systems has ordered long-lead items for the second set of 140 M1A1 Situational Awareness tanks. The SA enhancements to the M1A1 for Iraq include a second generation FLIR thermal site, Tank Urban Survivability (TUSK) enhancements and a driver’s vision-enhancing thermal viewer. The tanks will also be equipped with the TIGER engine, the Pulse Jet System, and embedded diagnostics. The TIGER engine has a monitoring system that is able to identify and alert the crew if there are potential problems with the tank.
• A contract for Korean T-50 jet training aircraft has been announced. No details were provided on this purchase. Standard strength of an Iraqi Air Force training squadron is 20 aircraft, but it is probable that more of the attack version have been or will be ordered. Delivery dates were not provided.
• On March 25, 24 Eurocopter EC-635 attack helicopters were sold to Iraq by France. This contract was negotiated last summer, but apparently was not executed by the end-year budget deadline. The order includes an option for 26 more EC-635s. Delivery dates were not provided.
• A contract for the procurement and delivery of 22 Mi-17CT helicopters has also been signed, with an estimated completion date of Aug. 31, 2010. This contract has been confirmed by the Russian company producing them. This will provide helicopters for a third Iraqi Air Force Mi-17 equipped squadron. This will be the second IZAF squadron to be equipped with the Counter-Terrorism version of this aircraft. According to the April 2009 “Advisor,” the cadre for five squadrons of Mi-17 pilots and gunners has been trained. The backbone of the old Iraqi Air force helicopter component was the Mi-17 and the Iraqi Air Force has up to 900 pilots and engineers available who can be employed after receiving refresher training.
• The official contract for 24 Bell 407 armed reconnaissance helicopters was also signed. It includes an option for 26 more. Delivery dates were not provided.
• The purchase of M16A4 rifles continued. A contract for 18,390 M16 A4 rifles was let and has an estimated completion date of March 8, 2010.
The Iraqis still have not decided which armored personnel carrier (APC) type to purchase. The paperwork for the LAV-25s and Strykers is already prepared by Multi-National Security Transition Command-Iraq’s Security Assistance Office. The SAO awaits the Iraqi decision on which, if either, will be purchased. A Romanian APC is also in this APC competition. There is also a reported possibility of a Korean APC purchase. Of note, the possible purchase of M1117 variants for the Iraqi Army APC role appears to have been dropped.
The purchase of 15 patrol boats and two Offshore Support Vessels from Malaysia was canceled because of the inability to deliver. The replacement order is dependent on funding and no contract has been signed. According to the 9010 Report, the Iraqi Navy is looking at 2011 to early 2013 for the delivery of the replacements. This depends on the budget.
The Iraqi Navy is still on schedule for its receipt of small craft and four Patrol Ships. The Defender and Fast Attack class boats are all due to be in Iraq this summer and the crew of first Patrol Ship (PS 701) is training on its ship in Italy. The PS 701 is to sail to Iraq in June 2009. The PS 702, PS 703, and PS 704 are to be delivered in three-month increments after PS 701. The PS 704 is to arrive in Iraq in March 2010.
The planned F-16 fighter purchase still does not have a contract and the purchase has been reduced and stretched-out to 18 per buy instead of the 36 previously discussed in a November 2008 briefing. The initial aircraft delivery is now envisioned as in 2012 instead of the first two squadrons worth delivered by 2012. The variant and total planned numbers of F-16s to be bought is 96 F-16C/D Block 50/52 aircraft by the end of 2020. Even with this reduced proposal the operative catch words quoted from the Commanding General of the Iraqi Air Force were: “Provided funds are made available by Iraq’s Parliament…”
Iraqi Army Divisional Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance Battalions.
On March 10, the first mention of a divisional “Intelligence, Surveillance and Reconnaissance Battalion” was reported. While this is not the first reconnaissance battalion to form in the Iraqi Army, it is the first report of a divisional subordinate ISR battalion. This is a long anticipated upgrade of the divisional scout companies to battalion strength. This upgrade has been in progress over the last 15 months with minimal reporting. On Oct. 15, a contract for the support equipment was let and had an estimated completion date of July 31, 2009. However, that contract did not identify what the new reconnaissance battalions would be subordinate to.
The first reconnaissance battalions identified in the Iraqi Army were the 4th Battalions of each of the four brigades in the 9th Division. The first formed was the EE9 scout car equipped 4-37/9 Reconnaissance Battalion (then the 4-9 Battalion) in January 2008. The remaining three mechanized reconnaissance battalions were equipped with armored cavalry versions of M113 and Type 63 armored personnel carriers and formed during the summer of 2008. Originally, it was assumed that the 9th Division was being organized modularly, with each brigade having its own reconnaissance battalion. However, the Multi-National Security Transition Command-Iraq force generation schedule for 2009 lists only 13 SIGINT platoons. (Note: Remember that MNSTC-I force generation recognizes only 13 IA Divisions.) These SIGINT platoons are a component of the reconnaissance battalions. The latest 9010 report indicates only 13 “Independent Security Force battalions” in the Iraqi Army structure. This reporting indicates that only one reconnaissance battalion per division is planned. This further indicates that three of the four reconnaissance battalions in the 9th Iraqi Army Division are probably training and gaining experience prior to their transfer to other Iraqi divisions that are to become armored or mechanized. The 9th is the only heavy division currently in the Iraqi Army. Its use to train and provide experienced cadre for other future heavy forces is to be expected.
All of the reconnaissance battalions formed since October 2008 have been converted, reorganized, and retrained from existing infantry. However, the hiring freeze might not have been the driving reason for the conversions. The conversion of experienced existing infantry battalions to combat engineers had also been noted, prior to the hiring freeze. A review of previous notes shows that 12 of the 14 divisional reconnaissance battalions have been tentatively or partially identified by the type of training and designations:
• 1st Division: Probably the 1-1/1 Battalion. Not re-designated yet, but being trained by USMC Force Recon.
• 2nd Division: Probably the battalion of 8th Brigade that went to Kalsu for training instead of Habbinayah. No activity reported from 8th Brigade since December 2008.
• 3rd Division: No information. Future armored division, which makes it a candidate for a 9th Division mechanized reconnaissance battalion transfer.
• 4th Division: Probably a battalion of 15th Brigade. There are references to a commando battalion in Kirkuk belonging to 4th Division.
• 5th Division: No information. Future mechanized division, which makes it a candidate for a 9th Division mechanized reconnaissance battalion transfer.
• 6th Division: Probably a battalion of 22nd Brigade, based on location of the reported ISR Battalion at Old Muthanna.
• 7th Division: Probably the former 1-27th Battalion. The battalion was reported receiving training by US Marine Force Recon. Referred to as a commando battalion.
• 8th Division: Probably a battalion of 30th Brigade. Training by US Special Forces and photos of training involving personnel wearing “Iraqi Special Forces VIII” and “ICTF“. The Iraqi Counter-Terrorism Task Force (ICTF) is the elite battalion of Iraqi Special Operations Force and ISOF is not establishing a unit in Diwaniyah. This indicates that ISOF is providing training assistance for this commando/reconnaissance battalion.
• 9th Division: Four reconnaissance battalions known. 4-34/9 Mechanized Reconnaissance Battalion (Type63 ACAV), 4-35/9 Mechanized Reconnaissance Battalion (M113 ACAV), 4-36/9 Mechanized Reconnaissance Battalion (M113 ACAV), and 4-37/9 Reconnaissance Battalion (EE9 scout cars). They are probably planning to transfer three of the battalions to other divisions that are to be mechanized or armored.
• 10th Division: Probably 3-41/10 “Commando” Battalion.
• 11th Division: No information. Future mechanized division, which makes it a candidate for a 9th Division mechanized reconnaissance battalion transfer.
• 12th Division: No information. This is the newest IA division, commissioned in November 2008. The division is still training its 49th Brigade and other components. Its ISR Battalion is probably not organized yet.
• 14th Division: Probably the 3-50/14 Commando Battalion trained at Kalsu. One of the most experienced units assigned to the 14th Division.
• 17th Division: No information. The division formation is not officially recognized by force generation personnel. Its fourth maneuver brigade is not formed or reported authorized yet. Its ISR Battalion has probably not organized yet.
The current Iraqi Security Force Order of Battle has duplicate entries because of these conversions. Those duplicates will remain until the old and new identifications can be confirmed and resolved.
Iraqi Army Force Developments.
The Iraqi Army continues to expand and improve training. A new Tactical Commanders Course started at Taji on March 22. This battalion and brigade command-level training course is designed to “provide commanders and prospective commanders with a “toolkit” for success that addresses unit operations, staff functions, administrative suspenses, and training all of which will be compulsory for newly designated battalion and brigade commanders in the Iraqi Army.”
Training of the M1A1 instructors at Besmaya continued in March and is far more extensive than any previous Iraqi Army tank crew training. “Each student is trained in a variety of skills on the Abrams including how to drive, load, fire and perform basic maintenance. To be proficient in all areas of the Abrams the students will rotate between the four different positions on the M1A1 to learn the different skills needed to run the tank. Previously Iraqi soldiers were only trained on their primary position and knew little to nothing about the other soldiers’ skills.” The first operational tank crew companies start training this month (April 2009).
A seconded 5-36/9 Battalion T72 tanker is one of those M1A1 instructors in training. This is the second report of the existence of 5-36/9 Battalion. That the 5-36/9 Battalion includes T72 tank crewmen indicates that it is one of the armor battalions due to receive the NATO-donated T72s from Slovakia. Those T72 tanks are due to arrive by this summer. Of note, there is an unconfirmed report that the 5-36/9 Armored Battalion is the re-designated 1-54/6 Infantry Battalion. The final designation of this battalion after completing training is undetermined.
A six-week Mortar Training Course for 8th IA Division personnel ended on March 24. This course was on using the 120mm mortars that the Iraqi Army is to receive starting in June 2009. The 17th Division was also receiving 120mm mortar training during the month of March. All of the Iraqi Army divisions south of Baghdad have been reported receiving training on 120mm mortars. The current plan is to provide each Iraqi Army brigade with a six- to nine-tube 120mm mortar battery. The Government of Iraq purchased enough 120mm mortars to provide 62 brigades with nine mortars each or 94 brigades with six mortars each. The Iraqi Army currently has 53 combat brigades (and two security Brigades) not including the eight Kurdish brigades of the 15th and 16th Mountain Divisions.
The Iraqi engineers are also receiving more equipment. “Iraqi Army Field Engineer Regiments began receipt and training with the Symphony electronic counter-measure system in January 2009. Produced by US defense contractor Lockheed-Martin, the Symphony Improvised Explosive Device jammer is a vehicle-mounted, programmable, radio-frequency IED-defeat system that emits radio interference to prevent remote triggering of roadside bombs.” Also the 6th Division’s Engineering Regiment is receiving more construction equipment in August 2009. Engineer training and expansion is a priority for the 2009 and 2010 Iraqi force development plans.
Iraqi Ministry of Interior Forces.
According to the 9010 Quarterly report, coalition advisers are shifting to a brigade-level focus for Iraqi National Police units, with the exception of newly formed battalions. This indicates that the existing INP are considered ready to operate at battalion-level without US assistance. The same report also stated that the INP will complete organic support units in each division during 2009.
The Iraqi National Police has assumed three new security missions. These missions were part of the Facilities Protection Service, but those elements are not considered capable enough. The size of these new Iraqi National Police units for these missions is undetermined, with the exception of the Central Bank. That unit was reported to be a planned 600-man battalion. The new special security unit missions are:
• Central Bank Force. (Reported to be a battalion.)
• Embassy Protection Force. (Probably a brigade.)
• Antiquities/Ruins Security Force. (At least a brigade, probably more.)
The Iraqi National Police plans to have a battalion or larger presence in nine provinces by the end of 2009. Four Iraqi provinces (Baghdad, Ninewa, Basrah, and Salahadin) already have an Iraqi National Police presence that large. Diyala province is to form a brigade this year. The continued expansion into the provinces is supported by a three-year plan to base a brigade-sized National Police force into each of the provinces, complete with a regionally based division HQ and division support battalions.
However, based on projected budget shortfalls, the Iraqi National Police will likely struggle with hiring, training, and equipping the additional personnel required to reach the desired end strength of approximately 60,000 in 2009.
The Iraqi Department of Border Enforcement is reported to be using unmanned aerial vehicles to monitor the borders. Additional reporting from the World Tribune stated that “Officials said the U.S. military has transferred surplus UAV systems to the Iraqi military and security forces. They said U.S. advisers have helped operate the UAVs and trained Iraqi personnel.” Details of what types of UAVs or their capabilities are sketchy at this point.
The first graduation from the Northern Oil Police Directorate’s Kirkuk Regional Training Center occurred in March. The Kirkuk RTC graduated 200 OPF personnel. According to the 9010 report, “the Oil Police Force operates 12 Battalions in three districts-south, central, and north. With additional funding, the MoI plans to form (funding permitting) an additional seven battalions over the next year and an additional 13 battalions by 2012 to provide nationwide infrastructure security coverage to this critical national resource.” From December to February, two new Oil Police battalions were formed. The Ministry of Interior is scheduled to resume full responsibility from the Ministry of Defense for guarding the oil infrastructure in late 2010.
Provincial Iraqi Police continued to reorganize and add capabilities. A Saqlawiya Provincial Security Force (PSF) was reported located northwest of Falujah. PSF is a term usually used to refer to brigade-sized paramilitary units in Anbar. This indicates that the Anbar Police have added a fourth brigade to their structure.
Basrah has added a 6th Emergency Response Battalion to its organization. This battalion was reported training at the Iraqi National Police headquarters building. Most of the Iraqi Police emergency units, battalions, and brigades are expected to merge with the Iraqi National Police and the Ministry of Interior Special Operations Forces.
Elements of Dhi Qar province’s 5th Tactical Security Unit received air assault training in March. “Tactical Security Unit” is new term being used for an Iraqi Police emergency brigade.
Hillah Police are going to the dogs. They have started forming and training their first K9 Unit. This is the first reported K9 unit in the entire Iraqi Police.
Kurdish Regional Guards.
A draft report from the Center for Strategic and International Studies (CSIS) provides a single-source unconfirmed partial organization for the 100,000 Kurdish Regional Guards. The cited source for this information is a “US military source familiar with the PUK Peshmerga.” The organizational data reflects only the PUK part of the KRG forces. Normally, this would not be reported in this venue because of its unconfirmed nature and sourcing. However, this is the only open source organizational data available for any of the Kurdish Regional Government’s forces. It will not be added to the order of battle pages until and unless confirmed.
According to the report, the PUK military component is a “brigade-centric infantry force with some armor and artillery and support units.” The future Iraqi Army 15th Mountain Division is being formed out of PUK troops, while the future Iraqi Army 16th Mountain Division is formed from KDP troops. The PUK force is divided into organized and semi-organized units. The Organized units are better armed, trained, and disciplined. The forces operate on a two-week on/two-week off schedule. The CSIS report author did not know which of the following units are components of the future 15,000-man Iraqi Army 15th Mountain Division:
PUK organized forces (6,658 personnel)
• 1 mechanized brigade (including 1 tank and 2 mechanized battalions).
• 3 anti-tank battalions.
• 3 tank-destroyer battalions.
• 1 machine gun battalion.
• 6 field artillery battalions.
• 1 engineer battalion.
• 1 scout battalion. (Deployed to Baghdad as the core of the Presidential Security Brigade.)
PUK semi-organized forces (25,000-26,000 personnel)
• 16 infantry brigades of 300 [under strength battalion or cadre] to 2,000 personnel each.
PUK Ministry of Peshmerga Affairs (8,000 personnel)
• 2 infantry battalions.
• 1 field artillery battalion.
• 3 military intelligence battalions.
Multi-National Force-Iraq Restructured.
On March 31, The UK-led Multi-National Division-South East was disestablished. The area was merged with Multi-National Division-Center and renamed Multi-National Division-South. MND-SE was the last of the non-US led Multi-National Force-Iraq subordinate commands. The Korean-led Multi-National Division-North East was disestablished in November 2008. MND-NE’s area was absorbed by Multi-National Division-North. The Polish-led Multi-National Division-Central South was disestablished and its area absorbed by MND-C in October 2008. Current MNF-I/MNC-I area commands are as follows:
• Multi-National Division-Baghdad: Led by the US 1st Cavalry Division, is responsible for the Baghdad Province.
• Multi-National Force-West: Led by the US II Marine Expeditionary Force, over watches the Anbar Province. MNF-W is in the process of reducing to a Marine Expeditionary Brigade.
• Multi-National Division-North: Led by the US 25th Infantry Division, is responsible for the seven provinces north of Baghdad.
• Multi-National Division-South: Led by the US 10th Mountain Division, over watches the nine provinces south of Baghdad. 10th Mountain Division is to be relieved by the US 34th Infantry Division in early May 2009.
95 Comments
Hi DJ
check this link
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4026136&c=MID&s=AIR
good reporting from you as always, but a bit dark
with the cuts yet there are some bright spots like what you said and others with the helo buys.
Are there any big buys you think this year?
and what about FA any news?
jack winters:
You mean that the big buys like the ones listed in the article from the last month?
E.G.:
• second set of 140 M1A1 Situational Awareness tanks.
• Korean T-50 jet training aircraft.
• 24 Eurocopter EC-635
• 22 Mi-17CT helicopters
• 24 Bell 407 armed reconnaissance helicopters
• 18,390 M16 A4 rifles
With the budget being what it is, I suspect most buys will be spread out until the price of oil increases above 60 dollars/barrel.
I am looking for the initial purchase of howitzers and ~400 APCs this year, for delivery by end of 2011
good point
I want to ask you about the f-16 buy, now we know that iraq wants to buy block 50/52 which is basic. and yet the US DOD is taking it’s time with this deal
any resone why?
yet you can buy other aircraft with the same stuff in them from other countries without problems.
right??
Five countries build 85 percent of the worlds combat aircraft. They are the US, Russia, China, France, and UK.
All exporting governments have government restrictions on arms exports. The US includes a clause that countries cannot re-export US made sensitive equipment (arms, computers) without US permission.
All exporting governments export degraded versions of what they use or (in some cases) do not export certain equipment. (E.G. EA-6B has never been and never will be exported.)
Russia has only once exported jet engine rework materiels/facilities. To India. That limits the buying countries’ ability to service their aircraft. Especially since Russian engines require rework twice as often as US. That is why half of the exported Russian jets are grounded at any given time. They are waiting for engines…
China has never exported servicing capabilities for its export aircraft beyond basics.
Iraq is looking to buy Jets from US, France, and Korea (Korean T-50 has US components). The only buy from Russia so far is Mi17s and that helo can be reworked by several other countries. The only buy from China has been personal weapons.
As to the delays, It takes just as long for the five-sided rubber-room to buy and receive US aircraft for US use…
In what way is an F16 Block 50-52 better than an F16 Block 60 aircraft? How much cheaper and lighter is a block 50-52? Why would Iraq prefer a Block 50-52 to a Block 60?
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htproc/articles/20090406.aspx
Iraq is spending $1.5 billion for the first 18 aircraft, or $83 million per aircraft including spares. At this rate the 96 F16s that IqAF plans to procure will cost $9 billion up front.
What is the cost difference between an F/A 50 aircraft and an F16 per unit? Can the F/A 50 perform adequately against Syrian Mig 31s, and possible future Syrian Mig 35s?
Anand, I think I can answer some of your question. Against relatively modern Foxhounds (MiG-31’s) and the very modern MiG-35 Fulcrums an F/A-50, even with a really good pilot would not have much of a chance against them. You have to understand, the Golden Eagle was designed to replace (the actual fighter version that is) the F-5E Tiger II. Therefore it is billed more of as a fighter-bomber. Not a miniaturized version of the F-16, even though it looks like one. (If you know your military aircraft, think of it more like the AMX International AMX, except supersonic.) With that in mind, against dedicated interceptors Such as the Foxhound (especially the Foxhound)or bigger more capable multirole Fulcrum with their larger radars and BVR missile capability, the F/A-50 would be completely outclassed.
a number of points.
1- syria is not getting mig31 or mig35s. this was conjured up by lobbyists wanting to get F22s to israel (as a counter).. and possibly the start of the war with gates on his ending of the f22 production for the usaf (look there’s a threat!). absolute nonsense… i wouldn’t be surprised if the USAF themselves pay for syrian mig31s in order to save the F22 production (tongue in cheek)
2-excellent analysis by DJ as usual, hopefully he can gain more info from the Iraqi MoD magazine and weekly video.
3-disappointment that there’s NOTHING about critical air surveillance / AEW / GCI anything to help control airspace announced… it really is shocking, this is a pre-requisite to acquiring fighters… i mean the only thing i’ve seen are the ATC radars ordered! surely they’re not going to control airspace with that?? – of course my favourite would be tethered balloons with radars (a’la kuwait, USCG etc…) with a few expensive AEW&C as roaming binoculars for fighter ops where longer range coverage is needed…
4-Saw one GHN-45 (155mm arty pieces dragged around by iraqi army…) if that’s any help 😉
5-any news about the MoD specific healthcare facilities (except ambulatory equipment i’ve seen nothing)?
6-new facilities are being constructed and tenders issued for two large mess-halls for 500 soldiers in taji and muthanna airbases. http://www.mod.mil.iq/AR-pages/Tenders/pdf/ar/161.pdf
7-no decision on the acquisition of attack helicopters… not even a pip (except the minister of defence riding around in a $25M tiger that would get past the defence committee over his dead body). With russia now ramping up the production of Mi28N and NE for both the russian and venezuelan military, and with this helicopter (the earlier incarnation Mi28) having been chosen as the main attack helicopter by the (defunct) iraqi army aviation in 1990! is there a possibility of this thing being acquired now… (especially considering the common engine, parts and even rockets i shares with the Mi17 that iraq is already acquiring in quantity… should mean iraq can make use of their 900 engineers and pilots for maintaining the Mi28N engines and transmission with little refresher training… but of course it doesn’t afford the iraqi officers the opportunity for a free extended holiday in france (sorry i mean training).
8-is it surprising or a conspiracy that the iraqis are not showing interest in USN equipment (like Hawkeye, F/A18) but only US army / USAF operated equipment… are some of the advisors biased in their advice?
9-any idea about the data-link system for the Iraqi military? Iraq had ordered data link for use by the air force (ISR aircraft and helicopters) as well as navy boats and tanks/humvees. this was announced last year, any further details about the data-link “network” for the military would be extremely interesting to assess the kind of net-centric defence and inter-branch collaboration that the military is architecting… at the moment it also seems to be centered around the KingAir ISR aircraft, but with the recent news of UAVs being used by the border guards, and the inevitable acquisition of AEW and fighters (with what i can only assume Link-16), how will they fit in and co-operate with the at6b, T/A50s, possible french fighters etc…
10-will iraq have any ability for protecting its seas and offshore oil facilities (that bring in 80% of the country’s income) in the future? how will this be achieved without any anti ship missiles or ASW aircraft (vs Iran’s kilo subs)… not to mention any radars or sensors!!!
many open questions remain… it would be great if you can dig around the minds of the people in the know so we can have a clue as to the holes in the swiss cheese of the current ORBAT and to have a vision of their future combat-posture 😉
“Syria is not getting mig31 or mig35s. this was conjured up by lobbyists wanting to get F22s to israel (as a counter).. and possibly the start of the war with gates on his ending of the f22 production for the usaf (look there’s a threat!). absolute nonsense… i wouldn’t be surprised if the USAF themselves pay for syrian mig31s in order to save the F22 production (tongue in cheek)”
I think you are right:
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8958&page=2
False report.
sheytanelkebir: I agree with you that there are many unknowns concerning some of the ISF’s C3 capability, especially their lack of interest in even looking to acquire an AEW platform yet.
As for Mi-28’s though, that might be a strange purchase.
I mean, if you look at the system they have now, they are basically buying them with American help though third party vendors direct from Russia. And even though, yes, Kazan does build the Havoc and they have gotten Mi-17’s from them in the past, such a purchase would probably rub the Kremlin the wrong way. Not to mention, its ability to use western equipment and weapons is limited.
Refurbished AH-64’s, new AH-1Z’s, or even the Tiger (the ARH or HAP variants) would be more appropriate. (AH-2 Rooivalk would be my personal choice though.)
Check that; Would HAVE been my personal choice for attack helicopter.
sheytanelkebir:
1:
or Russia might do a special deal to facilitate improving their sales image. Their mess ups in exports have them looking to improve their image.
2:
Where possible. Most is old data. What is interesting is the footage of the LAV-25 they included in the intro and exit. They do not have any YET…
3:
big problem, I still expect future E-2C buy, but budget does not support it ATT…
4:
Not surprising. The old IA had enough of them. If they are pushing salvaging the boneyards, then the budget is worse than even this article says…
5:
The monthly was getting too long. One item I cut was the shortage of doctors. The ISF is getting basic first aid training (which is more than Saddam’s forces ever did). Medics/Corpsmen are comming along. Jobs that require college are the problem. Doctors in the ISF are manned at 20 percent according to the last 9010. There is a general shortage of doctors throughout Iraq. I left that out because, the people most interested in that level of detail, would have read the link to the 9010…
6:
Yes. last month I reported on the students at Taji finally moving out of tents and into their new barracks. Most bases are still building their facilities up.
7:
Possible. but I suspect not. The Mi-17s are a glaring exception to the IMoD purchasing policy. And the expected transport helo requirements will exhaust the experience available. Also, there are distinct differences in the maintenance requirements that would require further training…
8:
Possible. Also, those are all carrier capable aircraft. The extra stuctural and maintenance requirements for such aircraft make them cost more.
9:
All of the platforms ordered to date that have data link, are NATO compatable. The differnce is in the encription codes provided.
10:
reality check. Iran owns half the coast-line of the Persian Gulf. If they want to close that transit route, there is nothing that Iraq can due about it. That is why there are links in the pipelines to Kuwait, Turkey, and the GoI is looking to re-establish the Syrian pipeline. I keep expecting a Jordanian Pipeline as well.
“many open questions remain… it would be great if you can dig around the minds of the people in the know so we can have a clue as to the holes in the swiss cheese of the current ORBAT and to have a vision of their future combat-posture ;)”
– No joke. There are times that I miss having my old access to the classified networks…
Hope you all fine ,, Any News on Humat Alwatan is the New eposide there ??
Regarding Aircraft, I wonder if Iraq would consider “used” (or proven as some would say Fighter Aircraft. Australia, Canada and Spain all bought fairly large number of F/A 18s in the 80’s (75, 80+ and 70+). I know the Canadians were looking to transfer some of their Aircraft, but they are now pretty old and they had a reputation for flying their planes pretty hard. This might be a cost effective way to build up some combat squadrons as an interim step. Regarding E2Cs, seems like Israel has taken their Aircraft out of service, perhaps we could take them back, update them and transfer them to Iraq. I know for a fact that the US donated Ex Israeli A-4 Skyhawks to Indonesia, sometime back.
masayo22311
As I have pointed out before, IMoD has a distinct adversion towards buying used anything.
This adversion is due to the corrupt deals that included Mi-17s that were unflyable due to structural fategue.
With armor, like tanks, you can rebuild the vehicle so long as the hull is reasonably intact. Heavier structure and tanks do not fall out of the sky.
Vessels are the same way so long as they have been properly maintained.
Aircraft are intentionally built as light as possible so as to improve performance (thrust-weight ratio). This makes them far more suseptible to metal fategue. There are limited exceptions to that rule, mostly aircraft originally built for carrier ops (beefed up structure). Also, older aircraft designs where the designer built heavier than needed or the thrust was less extreem. Very few fighters.
I do not expect the Iraqis to buy used aircraft again. There are only so many flight hours in an aircraft. Note the fuselage cracking in the F15s…
Hey ,, AlZamman Said that Iraq is looking for Modern Fighters from France including Mirage …
Great work as always, DJ!
I remember hearing that the IA’s greatest deficiencies are seasoned non-commissioned officers and field grade officers. This is, of course, natural since they have grown their force so enormously. What is the situation like now, are they able to start thickening their ranks?
Joakim Ekström
The situation is better, but still a work in progress.
– Manning overall for Officers and NCOs is 60 percent.
– For officers, the big deficit is still in the field grades (Maj/LTC).
– For NCOs the problem is experienced senior and mid grades. Junior NCOs are actually overmanned. And that can only be corrected with time and experience.
The estimate is still a decade before that problem is corrected. And most of the future unit additions will not have as much impact. (I.E. The 15th and 16th Mountain Divisions have experienced KRG officers and NCOs…)
As NoBody Talked About the PM visit to Russia ,,
Well Putin Said that Iraq Gives Us Oil and we will give them Hi-Tech Weapons !! that is the Summary ,,
Hi DJ
Iraqi officials in Russia have said that Iraq wants to buy Russian military equipment
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5h4Gvb6OTTsXL_ptbX5tIbN2lB-VgD97GAV6O0
So what do you think about that?? And the Iraqi defense minister is with the delegation headed by Prime Minister Nouri Al-Maliki, the defense minister is having talks with the Russians about this issue, although you said Iraq won’t buy Russian equipment?
I hope ,, If we stay with America we wont have Better Tech than an f-16 !!!
DJ
I think that Rafael is 70 milion per ,, When Very Good Russian Fighters like :
Su-27 : 35 Milion
Su-30: 45 Milion
su-34 : 36 Milion ( And it could be used as Attacker !!! )
su-35:70 Milion Better in My Opinion
Mig-31: 50-60 Milion
Mig-29 : 15 Milion
And Other ,,, Which is Introduced But still not Largley Used By Russia which is not Safe like the Su-37 ,, But you still Know that these Prices Will Go very Down for Oil Exchange !!! ,, I think that we must Buy from Russia as they have Very Fast Growing Relations ,, Not like US that Approvals for an Weapon May take a Year or More and The French Weapons Are Not Much Advance like ~!
and still its less Maintaning
things are definitely going to be interesting with the russians….
as I had earlier conjectured… the Mi28N is going to appear in there somewhere. Perhaps russian fighter aircraft too (wouldn’t bet against an updated SU25 in there somewhere, they never go out of fashion)…
but perhaps its just something as mundane as buying equipment for iraq’s existing russian-stock, or buying more trucks (Iraqi army already uses the ukrainian KRAZ as its primary medium truck).
since iraq has already announced the f16 buy, i don’t seen fighter aircraft being bought from the russians at the moment, unless the US rejected Iraq’s request? or refused to supply AIM-120C’s with the F16s… which would certainly push the iraqis to the R77 equipped aircraft for air defence.
jack winters:
From your link:
“Cooperation in the military area is possible in terms of holding training seminars and (purchases of) military equipment,” Zebari said, according to the Interfax news agency. “Purchase of weapons is also possible. I believe military-technological cooperation with Russia has very good prospects.”
Possible is defined as 30-35 percent chance. Notice that no specific system(s) was listed.
You might want to actually read the article you are commenting on and not try to put false words in the authors mouth. The 22 Mi-17s in this OOB update are being bought from Russia and the article clearly states that.
Over the last 2 years, I have repeatedly said they were going with Mi-17s as the IZAF primary transport helo. (Who do you think is the primary manufacturer?) I also have previously sudgested SAMs from Russia for air defense.
What I doubt is fighters and tanks from Russia.
I am ignoring the wild speculation comments. The Iraqis already have an arms deal with Russia. And will be buying more Mi-17s, also from Russia. From the article this comments thread is attached to:
“• A contract for the procurement and delivery of 22 Mi-17CT helicopters has also been signed, with an estimated completion date of Aug. 31, 2010. This contract has been confirmed by the Russian company producing them. This will provide helicopters for a third Iraqi Air Force Mi-17 equipped squadron. This will be the second IZAF squadron to be equipped with the Counter-Terrorism version of this aircraft. According to the April 2009 “Advisor,” the cadre for five squadrons of Mi-17 pilots and gunners has been trained. The backbone of the old Iraqi Air force helicopter component was the Mi-17 and the Iraqi Air Force has up to 900 pilots and engineers available who can be employed after receiving refresher training.”
sheytanelkebir:
I am still looking at US and France plus Korea for the Jets.
Mi-17s and other general service vehicles (trucks) plus spares for them and to rehabilitate salvaged equipment are likely Russian purchases. Also SAMs.
There is one basic problem with Russian military equipment: Their climate.
Russia has seriously low temperatures in winter. Differing metals shrink at differing rates as they get cold. That is why Russian guns have more slop in their barrel size and tend to be smooth bore. So they do not freeze up in Russian winters like the Wermacht weapons did in the winter of 1941-42.
This is also why Russian weapons are not as accurate as western when used in the mid-east. US and western European ground weapons are not built for extreme cold. The US actually inported speciallized vehicles for the Alaskan ARNG from Sweden for that role.
Also, the Russians do not bother with air-conditioning. Which is a distinct problem for Iraq in summer. You think it is hot outside, try being inside a tank….
Aviation is different. The temperature variations at high altitude vs low require that flexability.
Well how did Algeria Bought all their Weapons from Russia !!!
Almaleki
Yes. Lets talk about Algeria and the MiG-29s they rejected, sent back to Russia, and demanded a refund.
Turns out the Russians tried to provide them used (Read worn out) MiG-29s when the sales contract said new.
How many years did that dispute leave Algeria without those fighters? Or their money?
Sarc/ Until Russia, out of the goodness of their heart, decided to “refund” the money by providing credit towards another arms purchase. /Sarc off
Anybody that trusts the current Russian government and industries for their arms, has not been paying attention to the market or does not have a choise…
Well ,,
It is One Mistake !!! They Provided them all of there Weapons !!!
And i dont think that US will give us the Same Power of Weaponary But Russia Might !!!
Ok this is straight ,, is America Going ever to give us a better tech from an f-16 ,, for the next 25 Years ??!!
Almaleki
That was not the only event. You brought up Algeria. That was the event that almost cost the Russians their monopoly there.
Another series of factors:
1. All of the decision-makers in the IMoD are vets of the Iran-Iraq War.
2. During the early days of the war (79-82), Russia cut Iraq off because, they were trying to woo Iran into the Soviet camp.
3. That was the time-period that Iraq turned to China and France for aircraft and armor since no one else would sell to them. Prior to that, they were a good little Soviet sattelite state and bought almost everything from USSR.
4. Russia is wooing Iran again.
5. Then there is the betrayal during the Kuwait War when USSR ships helped deliver the US forces to Saudi…
6. What makes you think Russia would not play games with Iraq over again?
7. And what makes you think the Generals and Ministers have forgotten these events?
They are not going to buy anything Russian that they cannot get alternate support for, from other countries. (E.G. They can get spares and overhauls done on Russian Mi-17s from Former WP NATO countries, plus Ukraine, and China.)
By going with F-16, they are covering their bases with the US the same way. Plenty of countries that produce F-16 parts and can do overhauls.
Expect that to be the pattern. Iraq is not buying what the old school call “stovepipe” items. Items that have only a single source of spares and depot maintenance. Items that provide the seller with a monopoly on spares and maintenance.
Where possible, they are going to buy the facilities for doing the work and spares themselves.
And Russia is very stingy on that type of tech transfer. The USSR used to make a serious profit giving away aircraft (Etc), getting countries dependent on them, and then selling spares and maintenance at high enough rates to off-set the early loss. Russia still practices that technic where they can get away with it. Algeria, India, etc…
This is not a big deal in peacetime,
It is a disaster in wartime.
As Iraq found out the hard way in the Iran-Iraq War. And every since…
Almaleki:
The word is not “provided” or “give”.
It is “sold”.
As in “buyer beware” the Russian bear.
How much can you afford to spend?
Unlike dealing with the US, a small country like Iraq has no way of forcing a Russian company to refund their money when they pull a rip-off.
The arms industry in Russia is still government controlled and protected.
Attempts to recoup lost money to a Russian rip-off will be stone-walled by the Russian government.
If you buy from Russia, buy COD.
Cash on delivery.
Or you will be stuck with the Russian choise on what they sell to you, no matter what is on the contract.
Ask India about that carrier they are still waiting for and how much more they are going to pay for it…
PS That is why the deal for 22 Russian Mi-17s for Iraq is thru US FMS.
US FMS usually is for US weapons sales.
This puts the money in escrow in a US Bank until the Russian helos are delivered and pass inspection.
A US inspection.
GoI has gotten smart about dealing with the Bear, they got someone big enough to hold the Russians accountable to hold the money.
That shows you exactly how much the Government of Iraq trusts Russia.
They don’t.
And GoI is the decision makers, not you…
Iraq just bought 20 helicopters from Russia , unfortunately I didn’t get the type yet , I just read it in the newspaper.
Almaleki:
Try reading the article this comment thread is attached to,
or reading the comments above yours.
“• A contract for the procurement and delivery of 22 Mi-17CT helicopters has also been signed, with an estimated completion date of Aug. 31, 2010. This contract has been confirmed by the Russian company producing them. This will provide helicopters for a third Iraqi Air Force Mi-17 equipped squadron. This will be the second IZAF squadron to be equipped with the Counter-Terrorism version of this aircraft. According to the April 2009 “Advisor,” the cadre for five squadrons of Mi-17 pilots and gunners has been trained. The backbone of the old Iraqi Air force helicopter component was the Mi-17 and the Iraqi Air Force has up to 900 pilots and engineers available who can be employed after receiving refresher training.”
No ,, This is new Buy ,, Straight from Russia
Almaleki Ordered The IMOD to Buy a Russian Weapons and study the Buy
Link please.
I suspect circular reporting. Some of the press are slow to notice what I see in Iraqi, Russian, and US press releases…
Note: It could be the additional Mi-17s for the rest of the squadrons already trained….
All of the references I am seeing in Iraqi and Russian press that provide any hint of type of Russian weapons buys are stating “counter-terrrorism helicopters”.
That means more Mi-17v5 helicopters…
My projection is that there are to be five special operations squadrons of Mi-17v5s assigned to ISOF support. One per Brigade…
And probably (at least) five more Mi-17 transport squadrons for regular army support…
As i said on an Newspaper Named al sharq Al awsat ( Middle East )
some news…
http://www.afmc.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123144354
new radars installed at ali air base and they are suing the old nomenclature (Sector Operating Command) to describe it.
seems Iraq will have the 4 ground radars EW and GCI
since these radars don’t offer low-altitude coverage or ECCM, there’s still a glaring gap left…
sheytanelkebir
It is a start. At least the civil ATC functions will be covered.
For low altitude, you need some airborne radars.
Or enough radars to put two in every 30×30 mile square. (Two is for maintenance redundency.)
350 Piece isnt that Maybe enough ,, The Iraqis Didnt use Airborne Radars in Sadaams Time ,, Now are they ??
almaleki
its 4 radars for the country, not 350.
Iraq had realised the limitations and expense of ground based radar networks in the 1980s and had 4 AEW aircraft (Il-76) plus some airborne command post B-727.
In order to give military quality radar coverage, Iraq today will need to buy 6-8 AEW aircraft, the ericsson erieye based aircraft would cost about $1Bn for such an acquisition.
Any word yet on air defense systems? Specifically for threats against hostile MiG 29s or F-14s from certain neighbors.
Also, I was thinking, if the IZAF is looking for a more powerful platform than the F-16, how about the Korean version of the F-15?
Alex
Nothing so far on SAMs.
And the best mentioned so far is F16s and whatever the French are trying to sell.
The lack of SAM purchases (or negotiations) being reported from anywhere is one of the reasons I suspect they are looking at Russian SAMs.
The catch there is that I suspect the Russians do not want to irritate the Iranians when they are trying to get Iran and Pakistan to join the Shanghai Cooperation Organization…
Hi DJ
I’ve been thinking for some time about a certain issue, and I know you have the answer
We know that IMOD has a procurement plan for the main branches up to 2020, but since there is no clear white paper, can you tell us what the Iraqi fighting doctrine is for the different services? I mean you know the general goals are to secure the country and defend Iraq, but after Iraq gets its equipment is there any idea how will they go about using them? And this doctrine is it based according to previous experiences, adapting the old doctrine, or coping one from the US play book which is it or all? How will Iraq go about facing the threats of the future?
I know it’s a big question but it can put a lot of things into prospective for us to understand not just how many divisions and type of equipment but how will they use them?
thanx
jack,
That is four seperate related questions, not one big one. And seperate services to be addressed. You are sounding like a reporter asking “just one more question”…
1. “…fighting doctrine is for the different services?”
– The IA is building a combined arms army based on mobility.
– The air and air defense is unclear. I suspect it will vary with the type of squadron and role. (Differences between direct IA support and independent air operations.) I expect SAMs to cover key areas but, have no clear read on that.
– Navy is straight forward coastal defense.
– DBE is static defense with local QRF.
– INP is modeling on the Carabinarie. Mobile police paramilitary that augments the IA in wartime. However, the INP and the rest of the police elements are most likely to be employed as static defense forces while IA does the real manuever.
2. “…is there any idea how will they go about using them?”
That is so situational dependent as to be unanswerable. “No battle plan survives first contact with the enemy” is the first rule of warfare.
3. “And this doctrine is it based according to previous experiences, adapting the old doctrine, or coping one from the US play book which is it or all?”
Hybred. They are training to the US model but, with exceptions.
For example, in the old IA, a tank driver was not taught anything else.
– The crews being trained on the M1s are getting US style training where everyone in the crew is quallified at all stations.
– However, the T-72 and T-55 crews were taught the old way and are not as flexable.
Also, some elements are showing modular independent organization and others are showing stronger central control.
I think they are still working out the pros and cons of the differing doctrine and testing to see which works better for them.
4. “How will Iraq go about facing the threats of the future?”
Only someone that can predict the future could answer that. Differing scenarios would require very different actions.
Even the most likely scenario has serious varients.
A future fight with Iran may or may not include Syria, depending on the status of the alliance there.
Sudgest you review this again-
March 16, 2009: Iraqi Ground Forces ‘Total Force’ mobilization structure https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/iraqi_ground_forces.php
Now think what happens and how much of the ISF is defensive if Syria is in the fight
and how much is available for offensive operations if Syria stays out…
Congratulations ,, Iraq Before two weeks Made The Baghdad Eagle Operation With Brigade from the 17th Division anyway the Minister of Defence Said That Iraq is going more than Brigade in the Next 6 months !~ In a Website someBody Said that we Have Corp Ability ,, Please i will love to hear About this .. And Better By Source even that you are a source !!!
( source : Humat Alwatan Tv E:156 and Alkhama Ministry Of Defence Internet Magazine )
And what is the Status of the Iraqi Divisions Mounted up with M-16s And M-4s ,, I barley see some Iraqis With it ,, Almost 80 % Of the Army Have Ak-47 and Misr !!!
And the Latest Episode in 15 April showed Some Al Fahd Saudi APCs ,, this is a Link !!! about the Vehicle and as soon as the Episode is on the Net i shall bring it :
the Link of the Info :
http://www.military-today.com/apc/al_fahd_apc.htm
Dp you think that Iraq is gonna Put this in the Competition ,, I like it and it could have a 105 Turret or other Machine Guns ,, It is Almost a Light Tank if its mounted with the 105 MM !!!
Ah for jack there is the Hunters the Law Keepers TV Series about the Iraqi Armed Forces its lovley on the Sumaria Still not know when ~!
Almaleki:
The Operational Commands are joint Corps in all but name. Arguably, BOC is an army of two corps.
– BOC subordinate components:
— Rusafa Area Command: 1st INP, 9th IA, and 11th IA Divs.
— Karkh Area Command: 2nd INP, 6th IA, and 17th IA Divs.
– NiOC: 3rd INP, 2nd IA, and 3rd IA Divs.
– BaOC: 4th INP (forming) and 14th IA Divs.
– AOC: Anbar PSF, 1st IA, and 7th IA Divs.
etc.
What is to form, over the next three years, is four IA corps. The operational commands will probably revert to MoI primaries or be disbanded.
There are still more AKs in Iraq. Only the equivalent of four-to-five divisions worth of M4/M16s have been delivered to date. The IA has 14 “recognized” divisions…
Al Faud APC is based on a Piranah family varient built under license. APC varient of the LAV-25.
Are you sure it is Al Faud and not another varient. The 8×8 APCs tend to look very simular…
Al -Maliki
I saw the program they are Russian BTR-80s not fahad, the Saudis only made about 200 for their marines by faris corp in Saudi Arabia, by the way it was designed by British engineers and they based all the major components on the Piranah family.
Check it Again I am Almost Sure ,, Look at the Backward and it is surley not BTR-80 though that then I start it Again i am Sure almost 70 % we will see when it comes
Almaleki:
Jack:
Try this on as an option. Or the Saur-2 varient.
http://www.military-today.com/apc/saur_1.htm
The IA is supposed to be holding a competition between LAV-25, Stryker, and a “Romanian APC” for the first 400 APCs to be bought. The Romanians may have won the contract…
Yeah it also look alike
will wait for the Episode
Very Look Alike !!! i would say this not the Fahd
Dont you think that the Fahd is better ??
Almaleki:
No. Unique systems are a spare parts problem.
Capabilities wise, there is not much difference in the 8×8 APCs of the world except:
1. Can they swim or snorkle or not?
2. How dependable are they?
Everything else is very simular…
Iraqi army’s new integrated logistics operations centre was opened by the Minister of Defence.
http://nahrain.com/news.php?readmore=59742
The IMoD gets another visit from the Korean ambassador, to outline the iraqi-korean cooperation in the fields of armaments.
http://nahrain.com/news.php?readmore=59887
the koreans may as well move in to the ministry building… they’re there every day almost.
checked the New Episode on the Internet ,, Well it is not Saur-1 but still comparing Between the Fahd And the Btr-80 ,, the Back will end the Thing
Kack you won its BTR-80 what convinced me that our BTRs are all White but those was Yellow ,, Well sorry DJ For this ,,
But i still didnt find any Image for the Back of Al Fahd Saudi APC
There are 98 BTR-80s in the 37/9 IA Brigade based in Taji.
Note: There are several other vehicles that are very simular to the BTR-80. The Saur-1 and Saur-2 trace their design to the BTR-80.
The Saudi APC is based on the LAV-25 (aka LAV-III and Piranah III) with the turret removed. Stryker is also based on the Piranah family of 8×8 vehicles. So look at the back of a photo of the LAV-25 and imagine no turret…
sheytanelkebir at April 19, 2009 5:20 AM ET:
What I find interesting is that Iraq is trying to do a co-production deal with Korea for some type of armored vehicle.
I suspect it is a wheeled APC design. The Korean version of the Stryker.
That is why the big deal and all the talks. How much can be assembled in Iraq is the issue.
By assembling the vehicles in iraq, it reduces the cost because Iraqi labor is less expensive than Korean. Also it keeps that portion of the money in the Iraqi economy, providing jobs.
I am still looking for more details on the deals…
No the Fahd APC also Have a version of having 30 MM Gun just Write this in the search :
مدرعة الفهد السعودية
but i cant have the Back screen ,, Anyway it is not an Stryker
DJ i would like A picture for the Korean Stryker
Ah , Iraq is looking for Strategic Deal with Syria that will make them :
1- Saudi Arabia
2-Turkey
3-Qatar
4-Syria
5-UAE
6-Maybe Egypt but the Egyptians hate that US would like Iraq more than Them !!!
”
Posted by DJ Elliott at April 6, 2009 4:32 PM ET:
jack winters:
You mean that the big buys like the ones listed in the article from the last month?
E.G.:
• second set of 140 M1A1 Situational Awareness tanks.
• Korean T-50 jet training aircraft.
• 24 Eurocopter EC-635
• 22 Mi-17CT helicopters
• 24 Bell 407 armed reconnaissance helicopters
• 18,390 M16 A4 rifles
With the budget being what it is, I suspect most buys will be spread out until the price of oil increases above 60 dollars/barrel.
I am looking for the initial purchase of howitzers and ~400 APCs this year, for delivery by end of 2011
”
Howitzers ??
————————————————————-
Well DJ i contacted the IMOD ,, Told Them some thoughts about the Deals ( 10 Points ) including howtizers , Nato Tanks , AEW , korean weapons and Russia
they are very Late i am scared that the sent that to the Minister !!!
————————————————————-
Are the BTR-80 all in Taji ,, I saw 4 BTRs in the Gate of the State HQ of Basrah Before two Days !!!
do you think we salvaged others
or bought others ?? or the BTR-3U deal gone well ??
I mean we have some BTRs and they are all white Colored but the Ones in Basrah were Black on Green and in the Humat Show they were Yellow !!!
this is the Link for the Humat Episode :
http://www.mod.mil.iq/humat/wmv/157.wmv
DJ you are almost every time right !! in you opinion how many APCs and Tanks we would have in the End ??
and what types more likely ??
All what my Hands had on Korea
http://www.military-today.com/apc/km900.htm
http://www.military-today.com/apc/nifv.htm
http://www.military-today.com/apc/kifv.htm
I will start Looking out of The Military Today on APCs And IFVs
Almaleki at April 21, 2009 1:02 PM ET:
“DJ i would like A picture for the Korean Stryker”
– So would I, haven’t found one yet.
Posted by Almaleki at April 21, 2009 1:06 PM ET:
“Are the BTR-80 all in Taji ,, I saw 4 BTRs in the Gate of the State HQ of Basrah Before two Days !!!”
– The BTR-80s in 37/9 Brigade were all purchased and then fixed. They were the first batch of that bad Ukrainian APC deal. The remaining 336 were first to be replaced with BTR-3E1 under a new deal, and then canx before further delivery.
– 9th Division has been rotating armor support to Basrah’s 14th Div for over 18 months now. The BTRs you are seeing may be a detachment from that. Different units use different paint schemes.
– Also a possibility: The INP has 50 BTR-94s in their 1st Mech Brigade. BTR-94 is a modified BTR-80 with twin 23mm fitted. With the planned expansion of the Basrah INP into the 4th INP Div, they may have those for use. That could explain the color differences you are seeing.
– Very few other type BTRs have been reported salvaged. Most are in Diyala with 5th Division.
Almaleki at April 21, 2009 1:10 PM ET:
– In the end you will have nothing. In the end, the earth will be destroyed when the sun goes supernova.
– As to what Iraq might have by 2020, that is budget dependent. Few militaries plan more than ten years into the future.
– I have written an article on that and commented on the vehicle numbers before. I seem to remember you commenting on it…
https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/03/iraqi_ground_forces.php
– It is looking like the ISF is going with mostly wheeled APCs. To support the planned force structure you are looking at 4,000-4,5,00 APCs. Which makes the current competition for 400 APCs, the first order of 10 annual orders. Personnaly, I suspect a mix of types will be bought.
I dont think that Iraq is gonna Have The M1117 it is not Army Car >>> its security vehicle
Anyway ,, If we Bought those Saur-1 , Lav-25 and Stryker ,, are they all the 4500 Vehicle in you opinion or the Korean Stryker ( or their Copy of the Bradley KM-300 ) are they also between those 4000 Vehicle ,, As foir that you said Maybe 2100 or 1825 Tank ,, Here is My Question could we have this all until 2020 ??
Almaleki at April 21, 2009 11:54 PM ET:
“I dont think that Iraq is gonna Have The M1117 it is not Army Car >>> its security vehicle”
– M1117s are in service with the INP already and have been for some time. Also, the US Army uses them for MPs (convoy escort).
Keep in mind that Iraq already has over 500 BMP1s/M113s/Type63/MTLB/etc APCs.
If they buy 400 APCs per year for 10 years, they will have 4,000.
The question is the budget.
– At last year’s peak oil prices, Iraq could have bought 4,000 APCs in five years.
– At current prices, it is looking more like 2025.
Depends on the price of oil…
Regarding APCs, I think Iraq might want to reconsider “used” vehicles, like M113s which I believe are being taken out of service by the US. You would not want to ride one of these into a fire fight with opposing Armor or even against well armed infantry, but are sound vehicles for mobility. In fact, there is was a school of thought in the Army that M113s were superior to the Stryker
I wonder if there are surplus M109s left over from transforming and downsizing both Regular Army and National Guard Units that might be available.
masayo22311
We rearanged the force, we did not “downsize”.
By making the BCTs modular, increasing the BCT count per Division to 4, we require more artillery.
However, the M109s are being replaced.
Also, even the MSM is noticing that there is thought of donating some equipment to the ISF. Cheaper to leave it to the IA than to ship it home, considering we are replacing it anyway…
Yeah ,, Do you Think DJ that US Might leave some of its weapons for Iraq ??
Yeah Did You hear about the Airforce Anniversary ,, Well the Minister Of Defence was Asked about Details on the Weapons Deals ,, He said its National Security it is Classified Now Farther !!!
It is possible that we will donate equipment to Iraq.
Especially equipment that we are replacing anyway.
Why ship it home to dispose of it? That costs money.
So far, there is nothing official. Just RUMINT…
RUMINT ??
And What Weapons are being disposed ?? do it include Apache ,, I mean Good Stuff
RUMINT = Rumor intelligence. More speculation than fact. In other words, the mainstream press is starting to report on it.
Do not get overly hopefull. Probably just more HMMWVs plus odds and ends. They are not talking good stuff. They are talking about items that are going to be replaced anyways…
No, Apaches are not even close to being on the list. None of the aircraft are. By the time aircraft are normally replaced, the airframe is worn out. Which is why buying used aircraft is a very shaky move.
With ground equipment, you can rebuild the hull. You do not have to worry about falling from the sky if something falls off due to metal fategue…
Known items in the process of being replaced: Body armor, M113 APCs, Fox Chem Vehicles, M109 SP Howitzers.
A large part of what is probably being looked at is ammunition and spare parts. So they do not have to ship them back and then sort that mess all out again..
is this part of the APC competition….
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/Defense-Solutions-Holding-Inc-prnews-14861203.html
…”Defense Solutions has joined the team because the BTR 4 offers the best price-performance ratio on the market and because both Ukraine and Macedonia are important American allies in the Global War on Terror, having provided soldiers to fight alongside US. forces in Iraq…
….The BTR-4 was unveiled at UAE’s International Defense Exhibition in February 2009 and attracted interest from Iraqi officials and officials from other countries…..
…average acquisition cost of $1.5 to $2.0 million each….
that’s quite a few $ for a BTR… ringgold is still going for gold 😀 I certainly admire his dedication.
sheytanelkebir:
BTR-4 is not part of the competition according to MNSTC-I.
And yes, Defense Solutions is still trying to sell gold plated toilet seats at a serious mark-up. Defense Solutions is almost bankrupt and really needs money…
The four contenders:
– M1117 APC varient (since dropped from contention).
– M1126 Stryker.
– LAV-25.
– Romanian built APC (Probably Saur).
You have to admit though DJ; that is a rather interesting option for DS to throw out there. “Oh well we couldn’t get them with the BTR-3s so lets go 1/2 step farther and give them the BTR-4!” I mean to be perfectly blunt, why couldn’t they just have offered that in the first place, because the UAE Marines have BTR-3’s? But I suppose the way that they have tried to screw over the Iraqi’s in the past, the MoD wouldn’t bother listening to them no matter what they try to sell.
By the way, any news regrading a potential Korean interloper for the APC competition or is it still just rumors?
TW:
Just RUMINT so far.
The co-production option was mentioned by Korean press.
DJ,
Do you know who supplied the 120mm mortars/systems for training?
Was it FMS?
H. Carpenter:
The Iraqis does not start taking delivery of the 120mm and 81mm mortars that they bought thru FMS until June.
They are training on US mortars and left overs from the old IA ATT…
So far, I have identified five of the 10 IA brigades that are planned to get their 120mm mortars this year:
– 23/17 in south Baghdad Province.
– 38/10 in Maysan Province.
– 42/11 in east Baghdad.
– 46/12 in Diyala Province.
– 47/12 in Kirkuk Province.
O0n the Way they Are Serbian Mortars But who trained them Was Americans !!! I am also confused
Anyway the MoI Said that their was cuts in the Budget of the MOD AND MOI But the Parlement says they did not and today they will bring The Commander of the Army in Baghdad Aboud Kanbar ( He is Relative to me , Same Tribe as do with the PM ) and Division 11 Commander and The Defence Minister And Some MOI Leaders !!!
Why Cant we Buy this !!!
http://www.military-today.com/apc/pars.htm
this is Some Info about the BTR-4
http://www.military-today.com/apc/btr_4.htm
DJ are we going to buy Artillery other that Mortars ,, What do you think ??
– Almaleki at May 4, 2009 12:24 AM ET:
There is very little difference in the 120mm mortars of the world. The US M120s that are in the delivery pipeline are actually a western European design built under license in the US.
Buying from the Serbs would account for the missing mortars needed to provide each of the Brigades with 18 each.
There are 55 IA Brigades and only enough for 31 Brigades to be so equipped in the US FMS contract.
There are cuts. Only 4 C130Js are being bought vice the original 6. And that is not the only cut.
– Almaleki at May 4, 2009 12:28 AM ET:
Can you afford it? Is it the right system for your army compared to others out there? Will they sell to you? What would you use it for?
Those are the questions you need to be asking anytime you start shopping. And do not believe the company ads. According to the selling company, their system will win every war. Even the arms industry has its used car salesmen…
– Almaleki at May 4, 2009 12:31 AM ET:
I am still looking at howitzers in this or next year’s budget. Not so sure on MRLS type systems. If the IA is to be operationaly independent by 2015, then they need the big guns starting NLT 2011.
Do you think that their is A Cuts !!! i think that the Ministry is Sparing Money in ware that the Next Year Budget wont be as good as this Year ???
Well !!! Just Liked it !! and very useful if we wanted to have Better Relations With Turkey …
Do you think we are looking for American Big Guns then ?? But Not MLRS Well The Paladin or the M107 ?? Or are we looking for some South Korean K9s or Some South African ,, Or that Canidian Type the Old Army Had ??
Almaleki:
I expect the price of oil is currently bottomed out. How long it stays there depends on worldwide economic recovery. I am not optimistic.
Artillery may be US, Korean, South African, etc.
The pattern of organization planned appears to be:
– Three batteries of mortars and a battery of light howitzers per Brigade.
– Two battalions, each of three or four batteries of heavy howitzers and possibly a battery of MLRS per Division.
– No read on possible corps assets yet…
Note: The May update is posted.
Just One Questions How is Our Operational Ability ,, an Operation in Diyala with 40 thousend Soldier is that Corp Level ??
Almaleki:
Understrength corps.
That number includes police.
15,000 to the IA Division.
2-5 divisions to the corps.
ATT the 5th Division plus a brigade each from 1st Division and 4th Division are in Diyala (~20,000). The rest are police.