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Illustration 1. |
One of the common errors made in analyzing a combat force is looking at the armed services in isolation. To comprehend the organization of the Iraqi Army, you have to factor in the contributions of the other armed ground forces in Iraq. Also, you have to recognize what threat the Iraqis are planning against.
This article addresses the existing and planned ground components of the Iraqi Armed Forces at the end of Phase 3 development (2020), and will not include air, naval, and marine components. Readers should keep in mind that this article is projecting Iraqi Security Forces a decade into the future. Some of the decisions that affect this forecast have not been made yet.
The Iraqi Army’s current role of providing internal security is a secondary responsibility. Internal security is primarily a police function and is the primary role of the Ministry of Interior. The Ministry of Defense is designed to be the Ministry of Interior’s backup for when a situation exceeds the Ministry of Interior’s capabilities.
Likewise, the Ministry of Interior has a backup role to the Ministry of Defense in a major war mobilization. The Ministry of Interior’s forces provide infantry, rear-area security, and some light mechanized forces in that situation. Five of the nine corps headquarters and 22 of the 46 divisions in a general mobilization belong to the Ministry of Interior. However, only three of the Ministry of Interior’s divisions are to be mechanized, eight divisions are to be security, seven are to be motorized, and the remaining four divisions are to be infantry.
In a general mobilization, the Iraqi Army is planned to provide only 20 of the 46 currently identified planned divisions. This includes the majority of the airmobile/airborne and mechanized divisions plus all of the armored divisions. At this time, 16 of those 20 Iraqi Army divisions are already formed, but they are not currently configured or equipped for their future role. All but one division is currently configured as infantry or motorized. The Iraqi Army is planned to include four armor, six mechanized, five airborne/airmobile/commando, three mountain, and two security divisions. The Iraqi Army will also provide four of the nine planned corps headquarters.
The second largest planned Iraqi ground force is the Iraqi National Police. This Ministry of Interior force is modeled on the Italian Carabinieri. Like the Carabinieri, the INP has the secondary role of providing infantry and light mechanized force to support the army in wartime. The INP is in the process of forming its fourth division and had planned to form its first light mechanized division this year. Budgetary difficulties may delay this fielding. The Iraqi National Police is planned to be 11 divisions, three of them light mechanized, one security, and seven motorized infantry.
The third largest planned Iraqi ground force is the Department of Border Enforcement. In any ground incursion into Iraq, this Ministry of Interior component would be the first engaged. The DBE is organized into five division-size regions and would contribute four infantry and one security division to the total mobilization.
The next largest component is actually two forces at this time. The Iraqi Special Operations Forces and the Ministry of Interior’s Emergency Response Brigade will probably be consolidated into the Counter-Terrorism Bureau. The CTB is planned to become a separate ministry from the Ministry of Defense and Ministry of Interior. Legislation for this new ministry remains hung up in the Iraqi Parliament. Currently, the combined Special Operations Forces are the equivalent to a divisional-size airmobile force. Analysis of their locations and organization indicate they are planned to grow to, at least, a four-division equivalent-size force. [MNSTC-I indicated that this portion of the draft article was in error. However, no further details have been forthcoming.]
The Ministry of Interior’s Oil Protection Department is currently a divisional-size security force. But OPD is to expand to three light division equivalents by the end of 2010. Because of the wartime importance of oil infrastructure, these three security divisions would fall under the combined structure.
The Ministry of Interior’s Facilities Protection Service is planned to be 108,000 strong, larger than the Department of Border Enforcement. However, the FPS is forming only three divisions in its current reorganization plans. The FPS is not currently organized at divisional level. These three security divisions constitute the Facilities Protection Service’s contribution to a wartime mobilization.
This total structure and the possible wartime distribution of divisions is mapped out in Illustration 1 (above right).
The planned force structure is based on the perceived threat. While some continue to look at Iraq as an Iranian ally, the Iraqi force dispositions and planned organization paint a very different picture. The Iraqi security forces are organized with the primary threat being Iran and secondary threat being Syria, Iran’s ally .
• Two of four planned Iraqi Army armored divisions are stationed along the Syrian border supporting the Department of Border Enforcement division.
• Four of six planned Iraqi Army mechanized divisions are to be stationed along the Iranian border, also supporting three DBE divisions.
• The Saudi Arabian border is covered by an under-strength Department of Border Enforcement division (two brigades).
• The Turkish border is covered by a single Department of Border Enforcement brigade, supported as needed by Kurdish Regional Guards elements.
• The Jordanian border is covered by a single Department of Border Enforcement brigade.
• The Kuwaiti border is covered by a single Department of Border Enforcement brigade.
In a wartime mobilization, Iran could field 48 divisions, mostly infantry. The extensive Iraqi border with Iran combined with this large force makes Iran the biggest threat to Iraq no matter how good the current political relationship.
The Syrians have a smaller force, but it is mostly armored. However, Syria also has to cover its Israeli and Lebanese borders. As such, the most Syria is likely to have to reinforce the two mechanized divisions in the Iraqi border regions is an additional armor or mechanized division.
The Turkish Army is the second largest in NATO. However, it is focused on the Greek, Armenian, Georgian, and Iranian borders, with only one corps assigned to internal security duties against Kurdish separatists in the Iraqi border region. Also, the road network does not support large-scale force movements into Iraq through the mountains.
The combined armies of Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Kuwait, Iraq’s other neighbors, do not equal the threat of Iran, Syria, or Turkey alone. And Syria is allied formally with Iran.
The planned total force structure of the Iraqi Security Forces is designed with the Iranian-Syrian threat in mind. This force will have the personnel components by 2011 for this structure, but the equipment and upgrades will take until 2020, at least. The recent drop in oil prices is likely to delay or cancel some of the equipment upgrades in the armored and mechanized components. Oil sales are the primary source of revenue for the Government of Iraq’s budget. At this time, the Government of Iraq is trying to shield the Iraqi Security Forces from budget cuts. If the price of oil does not rise, that policy may be impossible to continue.
Currently the Iraqi Army is planning to equip its armor and mechanized divisions with new-built M1A1 tanks and new armored personnel carriers. These weapons systems are very expensive. However, the Iraqi Army may resort to buying used armor for part or even most of their force.
Many European countries are replacing their older tanks with German Leopards. Because of the Conventional Forces in Europe treaty, most of those tanks will have to be disposed of. It is cheaper to donate used tanks to another country than it is to destroy them. Scrapping tanks costs more than the salvaged metal is worth. This is why Hungary and Slovakia have donated used T72 tanks to Iraq through NATO.
All of the Soviet-designed tanks currently in the Iraqi Army were donated or salvaged. The Government of Iraq did not pay for those tanks. The only tanks the Government of Iraq has paid for are new US M1A1s. This factor puts the Defense Solutions proposal to sell upgraded T72s to Iraq for $3 million per tank into perspective as a bad deal. Why should Iraq pay $3 million per used T72 tank when NATO countries are giving those types of tanks away to Iraq? The Defense Solutions proposal has been rejected by the Iraqi Government since 2005.
One option would be to acquire the M60 Patton tanks being disposed of by Greece and Spain for immediate use. These tanks were sold to Greece and Spain for $100,000 to $200,000 in the 1990s and are now being replaced by used German Leopards. Later, as the budget permits, these tanks could be upgraded.
The most expensive of the M60 upgrade programs is the M60-120S. Using mostly M1A1 components, the turret, gun, fire-control system, engine, and suspension are replaced and armored skirts are added. The M60-120S costs half as much as new M1A1s while providing the same firepower with reduced mobility and hull protection. The Russian upgrade program for Iranian M60s is the same as the M60-120S except it uses T80 components and the T80’s 125mm gun and turret. There is also an Israeli M60 upgrade program, but politics make that an unlikely choice. There is also an upgrade program for Jordan’s M48 Patton tanks that could be used for those Patton variants.
Additionally, the US is in the process of replacing 6,000 M113 armored personnel carriers with Stryker APC variants and Bradleys. The Iraqi Ministry of Defense has not asked for any of these APCs, despite already using more than 200 in the current force.
The Iraqi Ministry of Defense has been looking exclusively at buying new armored vehicles, including M1126 Strykers. Falling oil revenue is likely to force the Iraqi Ministry of Defense review its options.
140 Comments
http://www.acpr.org.il/English-Nativ/04-issue/fishbein-4.htm
HEAVY
METAL,
R
Render:
There are some serious errors and omissions in that report.
E.G. Jordan is also upgrading its M48s with 120mm guns as well as the M60s.
Also, the Israelis have the Sabra upgrade to the M60s, with a 120mm gun as well. Turkey is upgrading its Pattons with the Sabra kits.
Egypt already has 1100 M1A1s.
And they did not address the Iranian M60 upgrade program from Russia.
They also over-rate the Egyptian and Syrian conscript forces abilities. The officers may be decent (carreerists) but the enlisted are not so proficient and NCOs have limited training and authority…
Sort of off topic but here’s something you don’t see everyday – MSM reporting positive polling trends out of Iraq.
http://abcnews.go.com/PollingUnit/story?id=7058272&page=1
Hi ,,,
I hope we bring the Retired weapons from United States of America Army ,, then we could upgrade it to the Jordanian and American and European Upgrades and Have our Tanks up to 2000 Tank with 120 MM Tanks with high ability and Laser Stuff ( For survival ) and More of that we must Use the DU Armor and Rockets and then have Military Alliance with Arabic Countries Just Like Jordan and Saudi Arabia ( if Egypt had Borders i would also ) then we could say that we wouldn’t be conquered by Iran or Syria and having an Army that can stalemate with the Israeli ( without Nuclear Power difference
ah and the ABRAMS Company General Dynamics started building the First Tanks for Iraq in Ohio with the M1A1SA AIM abilities and TUSK Upgrade and adding a 7.67 MM Gun in the Rear ( that will be Main GUN 120 MM and secondry of 12 MM and third with 7 MM )
the Intrnet is Slow its all of the news just Check Google But nothing about Du Armor But i think its included ( Question is the IEDs able of pentrating an M1 ) Yeah and someone who works in Ohio told ne that Iraq Ordered amount of KEW-A1 ,, in Defence Talk Forum
I am banned there so i will Change my IP And Bring what he said
Question :
is any of the New Weapons going to be used in Basrah ( I am in Basrah and would like to see an Abrams with Iraqi Flag moving in the street or even an Stryker or an F-16 )
ah do you thing we are going to have the Slat armor on the Strykers ??
Almaleki:
As I mentioned in the last ISF OOB update, 14th IA Division looks to be in the running for getting M1A1s this year or next.
There has to be some reason why the 53rd Brigade, 14th IA Division has been held at Taji for so long…
As to the Strykers, they have not been ordered. The IMoD has not decided which APC they are going with in the competition. So there is no way of knowing what accessories may or may not be on an item that may or may not be purchased…
DJ: It is a five year old report after all. Errors and obvious bias notwithstanding I thought it had some interesting info and some valid points in it.
General Dynamics dumped this press release on the 11th…
===
STERLING HEIGHTS, Mich. – General Dynamics Land Systems, a business unit of General Dynamics (NYSE: GD), has been awarded a contract worth $33 million to purchase long-lead materials for the production of 140 M1A1 SA (Situational Awareness) tanks for the Iraq program.
The SA enhancements to the M1A1 for Iraq include a second generation FLIR thermal site, Tank Urban Survivability (TUSK) enhancements and a driver’s vision-enhancing thermal viewer. The tanks will also be equipped with the TIGER engine, the Pulse Jet System, and embedded diagnostics. The TIGER engine has a monitoring system that is able to identify and alert the crew if there are potential issues with the tank. The 140 tanks will be manufactured in Lima, Ohio, by existing General Dynamics employees.”
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Looks like a single TUSK regiment to me. Good that Lima is still open enough to re-start production.
I still think upgraded M-60 and T-72 variants would be better suited for Iraqi uses and abilities, but an elite TUSK regiment does offer a bigger stick with regards the neighbors.
SMOKIN
CHARIOTS,
R
DJ
What do you think that the Iraqi Army will consist of in 2020 ??? like
? Tanks for these Types MAYBE ( Not like you know the future but as an Expert Opinion )
and are going to open a subject about the Other Corps ( not Land ) ??
Is the Usk Better than the SEP ??
Ah , Almaleki is foing to Moscow ,, do you thing we will look for Russian NEW weapons ( means not t-72 but t-90 and so on not BMP-1 BUT BMP-3M ( AS THE PRESS SAID THAT RUSSIA IS LOOKING FOR SALE OF 100 ) and not MIL MI HIND-25 BUT -35
Almaleki: Welcome aboard. I don’t think the export M1A1F’s will have the DU armor inserts, but I could be wrong about that. I’m almost positive that the TUSK upgrades don’t have a fixed rear facing MG – I don’t think anybody has used anything like that since the 1930’s, but the TUSK package does have remote control stations for the various turret top MG’s available.
The KEW-A1 tungsten penetrator round is considered a high performance alternative to the DU penetrator rounds.
http://www.gd-ots.com/webpdf/120mmKEW-A1.pdf
But it would limit the type of main gun used to upgrade the older Russian type tanks to the three currently certified for KEW use. Or it would only be useful for the M1 equipped regiment.
WHERES
LUNCH!,
R
THANKS render BUT I DONT THINK that we are going to just stick with the KEW-A1 and not another ammo ??
you mean that Australia and those all allies dont have the du Armor ,, I Cant Buy it ,, Sorry ??
Almaleki: TUSK (Tank Urban Survivability Kit) is a specific package designed for urban (city) combat. It can be added to any M1 version.
The SEP (System Enhancement Package), like TUSK is an upgrade package that can be added to any existing M1 Abrams.
It’s my understanding that most of the TUSK kits are applied to Abrams that have already had the SEP I or SEP II upgrades or that those upgrades are done to the vehicles at the same time as the TUSK package.
WHERE IS MY
FREAKIN LUNCH?,
R
I understood that we are going to have the two of them ??
Render what do you think about this Question :
” What do you think that the Iraqi Army will consist of in 2020 ??? like
? Tanks for these Types MAYBE ( Not like you know the future but as an Expert Opinion ) ”
Means what is your Answer
ah-ha lunch has arrived.
===
Almalaki: Australia didn’t want the DU inserts or ammo for their Abrams. I don’t think it was even offered to the Egyptians, Saudis, or Kuwaitis, although I’m sure they requested it. I doubt it’ll be part of the Iraqi order either.
WOULDN’T
BE
PRUDENT,
R
OHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
NO NO we will have it ,, I am not Hearing you ,, or looking for your posts …
Anyway :
Answer all of my questions or i will put a 12 MM bullet in your Head ( Not like i didnt done that before )
I understand that the only users are those :
Egyptians, Saudis, or Kuwaitis or Austrailia
Render
Seen that. It is long-lead items for the second order of 140 M1A1s.
Almaleki:
Look at Illustration 1 and scan all the way to the right. I list which Divs I expect to be what type.
How equipped depends on budget. If they go with M1A1s thru to the end at 140 per year, they you are looking at 2100 tanks.
The Tusk version is better for urban warfare. I expect those to go to Baghdad.
Note: The last OOB update noted the four Divs most likely to be filled out with M1A1s. One Div each in Ninawa, Basrah, Baghdad, and Anbar (QIC). The political impact of Iraqi markings on M1A1s in those four areas is part of the equasion…
Almaleki
My guess is BMP3s and Mi17 varients.
IMoD likes the BMP and the IqAF has 900 quallified Mi17 engineers and pilots…
So there really are going to be two M1 regiments (brigades)? Do we know what division they’re going to be assigned to?
Two brigades to an armored division?
I’m guessing the 7th (Central IA), but I had thought the Abrams brigade(s) might operate independently to simplify the logistics issues.
===
“regiments”
Yeah, I learned from the school of threes. Three companies to a battalion, three battalions to a regiment, three regiments to a division. This “brigade” stuff is like new math to me sometimes.
===
“12mm to the head”
snicker…I play Call of Duty4 so that happens to me at least twice a night – 15 seconds later I respawn and teach the sniper noobs what Belt-Fed really means.
M-60E4
RED DOT,
R
2100? 15 armored brigades? Holy cra…
Lemme grab my Emily Latela hat again.
NEVER
MIND,
R
Render
Go read the last OOB update. And the comments.
7th (Anbar) and 11th (Baghdad) are first candidates.
Followed by 14th (Basrah) and 3rd (Ninawa).
35 tanks to the Battalion. 280 M1A1s ordered to date is 8 Bns. First probable Armored Brigades are 29/7 and 53/14. (2 Tank Bns per Armored Brigade.)
Render:
60 Tank Battalions total is what I see the plan to be in total. That includes the 6 T72 and 2 T55 bns.
I first listed that projection based on the Divs that need to be Mech or Armored and the BMP1 count last summer.
35 tanks and 9 BMPs to the Bn.
Mech Divs get 4 Bns of Tanks. Armored 6.
I expect 4 independent Tank Bdes as well.
5 if the “Preatorian” Div gets armor and I expect that is what the TUSK tanks are about…
The question is how many tanks will be M1A1s.
52×35=1820 projected. Unless they upgrade the 9th Armored Div too…
Note: HA is disposing of its 363 M60A1s already, to be followed by the 400 M48A5s, then the 308 M60A3s. They are upgrading to Leopards.
Babaker Zebari was in Romania. I’m guessing negotiations on APCs most likely…
http://www.mod.mil.iq/news/2009/3/3/80e.html
Still no news on F16s for Iraq, and only rumours on the T50… come 2011 (which is not so far away) Iraq is gonna be naked in the air, it seems…
sheytanelkebir
More than rumors on the T50s from the KS side. Just no hard numbers yet.
http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/nation/2009/03/205_41302.html
Romania is in contention for the same APC buy as the Strykers. So is the Korean version of the Stryker. The discussions with KS included co-production. I suspect price will drive this away from the US contenders (LAV-25/Stryker/M1117varients).
As of monday, no IMoD decision yet on the APCs per MNSTC-I SAO. Probably that visit is negotiations to determine what they will go with.
there’s a Korean Stryker?!? (link?)
At any rate, The proposed T-50 deal couldn’t have come at a better time in my opinion. An excellent trainer and I would believe a decent second line fighter/ CAS aircraft.
However, Is there any reason to not speculate DJ that the Iraqi’s simply aren’t interested in M60’s anymore and that they just want Abrams? (and their T-72’s of course) It seems to me almost like they would be modeling themselves (unintentionally I’m sure) after the Kuwaiti Armored forces, albeit on a much larger scale. Where they have a front line force of very modern M1 tanks and a supplementary/ reserve force built around older M-84 tanks.
TW
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/rok/wav.htm
The current IMoD attitude is to buy new. That is fallout from the junk deals of 2005. (Mi17, BTR80, AKs) Since then, they have not bought any armor that was used. Too much fall out from those bad deals.
All of their Soviet design tanks were either donated or salvage. The current GoI did not pay for them. Even the BMPs were salvage, donated by HA, or bought by the US from HA. They have expressed no interest in buying “Russian Junk”. (Their words.)
That being said, I still think they will have no choise but to go with some used armor. All new costs too much.
Discounting “Russian Junk”, leaves Pattons as the most likely option….
Akhi Almaleki,
Welcome to this blog. Your enthusiasm for the IA and their plans to become the greatest military in the 6arab world is infectious. 🙂
I would note that all of us are only allowed to comment on the specific article at hand. None of us are allowed to talk about politics here. Any deviation leads to DJ Elliott (who writes about the ISF on the LWF) to delete the comment. My comments have been deleted many times. Everyone’s comments have been deleted. Even Bill Roggio 🙂
I for one would love to hear your thoughts on what the ISF should buy. So please keep sharing your thoughts with us here. Another place you could share your thought regarding the ISF is:
IraqiMojo.blogspot.com
Cheers Akhoiya!
Hello Anand or could is say Anan from Defence Talk ,, Well any Iraqi Loves His Country Must ….
Anyway i think :
Stick with the M1A1SA AIM to Buy with Our Own Money to a number between 700 – 1000 and talk with Nato countries to give us their T-72M and M-60A3 OR 120S and M-48 and if they are not Upgraded Bring up some Upgrades from Jordan or America and put the T-72 and the T-55 and M48 in Storage or as reserves Tank and put an High Force on the Borders of Iran and Syria and Saudi ( For stoping terrorism coming and to stop any military Action )and use the M-60 and M-48 as the First Line of Defense and if those were Defeated use the M1A1 lets say put 2100 Tank from M1A1 and M60 and more than 2000 from T-72 , T-55 And m48 ( and the Chance of putting T72 with the Other Group ) and if we can talk with the American Side of Production of Armored Vehicles is More than Great Like What Egypt Do and more likely with M1117 and Abrams … and buying Strykers and Have some of the retired M1113 but with a Huge Salvaging thing to do and Look for Weapons from Egypt , Saudi , UAE and Jordan with Military Alliances etc and Korea we must work with the Korean Side about Armored vehicles and they have this vehicle K9 THUNDER OF artillery ( like the Paladin ) and a Missile Launching Artillery named Kooryang ,,, and Leave the Thing Russian Junk and look for Russian Weapons
Almaleki
So far, the only KS deal was for T-50s and there are no details on that.
But IMoD was also looking at KS Artillery as well as talking co-production of a KS armored vehicle (kit assembly in Iraq).
Which means the K9 SP Howitzer is on my possible short-list of Iraqi buys…
Also, Korea is replacing its M48s with K1s. Which means that is another potential source of Pattons. At least 3,000 M48/M60 tanks being disposed of in Europe and Korea, now or in the near future.
well DJ you didnt tell me your expect for the Ground forces in 2020 from How Many Soldiers to how many vehicles and Tanks and how is it going to be infected ,, Talk Man ,, I like you when you Talk about Iraqi Military
Do you think the Next Visit to Moscow will be infecting on the Iraqi Army as the Last to Austraila went to give DNA ability to Iraqi Police
Almaleki:
The visits to Moscow have more to do with reducing the debt and developing the oil infrastructure. Although they may look at their SAMs. The US prefers to use out fighters for air defense but, most other countries use a mix of fighters and SAMs.
The entire article is about what the Iraqi forces will look like in 2020.
– click on Illustration 1.
– scan all the way to the right.
– look at center column.
– Do the math.
20 IA Divs listed. 15,000 personnel per Div. Averaging non-divisional units (E.G. Support, training, etc) in, about 22,000 per or about 450,000 total.
11 INP Divs listed (possible there will be more). about 12,000 per div. Averaging non-divisional units (E.G. Support, etc) about 17,000 each or about 200,000.
Same for DBE’s 5 divs about 85,000.
SOF at about 60,000-80,000 (includes SWAT).
OPD at about 25,000-30,000.
FPS is announced to be 108,000.
The common mistake being made is that people think that Iraq can’t support that many. They are already in uniform.
– The INP is recruiting, retraining, re-equipping, and redesignating the existing provincial paramilitary IP brigades. Those that do not go to the DBE or MoI SOF.
– MoI’s SOF recruits from the existing SWAT teams.
– Most of the KRG troops will be absorbed by the IA or INP. Some to SOF.
As to equippment:
– Standardized IA Armored Div is 210 Tanks, 54 BMPs, 400 APCs/recon, 72 howitzers/MLRS, 72 120mm mortars, 72 81mm mortars. (Not including support vehicles like HMMWVs/trucks/ILAV etc.)
– Standardized IA Mech Div is 140 Tanks, 36 BMPs, 480 APCs/recon, 72 howitzers/MLRS, 72 120mm mortars, 72 81mm mortars. (Not including support vehicles like HMMWVs/trucks/ILAV etc.)
– Standardized Light (AAslt, ABN, MTN, INF, MOT) Div is 72 howitzers/MLRS, 72 120mm mortars, 72 81mm mortars. (Not including support vehicles like HMMWVs/trucks/ILAV etc.)
I sudgest you review the ISF OOB pages. https://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
Especially page 13 (TO/E).
In total there are over 50 pages of data on the ISF in that monster.
you are telling me to buy Huge amount of Staff Here but i want to know how many APCs for wHole Army
Ok ,
How Many :
Armored Div do we Have
Mech Div
Light Div
From above article:
“At this time, 16 of those 20 Iraqi Army divisions are already formed, but they are not currently configured or equipped for their future role. All but one division is currently configured as infantry or motorized. The Iraqi Army is planned to include four armor, six mechanized, five airborne/airmobile/commando, three mountain, and two security divisions. The Iraqi Army will also provide four of the nine planned corps headquarters.”
Sudgest you review the article that you are commenting on….
As a rule of thumb: 2 APCs per Tank is normal mix.
So if you are going with 2,100 tanks then 4,200 APCs.
However, I expect the 1st Div (IIF) to be a light mech div along the lines of the strykers in the US 2nd ID (Mech). No tanks, but has the wheeled APCs and AGS. So call it 5,000…
Now do you see why I fully expect IMoD to bite the bullet and acquire used armor?
Tanks per vehicle are the most expensive item on the ground. But in a division they are not the most expensive overall component. The APCs, FA, etc adds up fast.
Just at bn level the total vehicle count is usually 100, and only 35 are tanks and 9 are BMPs in a tank bn…
Well
I must say thats big Number of Tanks and APCs and we cant fill it all with Strykers and Abrams ( cuz those two is the Most Very expensive weapons in world ) ,, i mean it will take us all the way to 15 Years thought only if the Plan to Rise the Oil Production is succeed that will take us to 8 Milion Barrel less than 8 Years with 2 Years to put it to 3 M Barrel ….. my Father works in the Oil ,, He is one of the best Men there ,,,
Anyway back to our Topic … didnt you said earlier that Iraq Needs 1820 if not included 9th … so that will put us as 3640 APC and if we said that Iraq will buy 400 per Year all the way untill 2020 it would be 4400 but if without this Year then 4000 ( and if we talked about what you said that will be Just Enough Right ?? )
Regards
in an Off-Topic Question :
are we going to have 252 Jet or that will stay Dreams ??
Almaleki:
Yes,
If you discount the 9th Armored Division. then you trim the numbers by 280 tanks and about 400 APCs. The two bns of T54/55s would probably be training tanks.
As to jets, that is entirely possible. The T/A-50 is not as expensive as many aircraft. If they are only ordering one training squadron ATT, that would be 20 jets (Atk/Trng).
Add the 36 F-16s on order and you are looking at a minimum of 56 jets on order already…
Can we try this exercise?
What is our annual ISF budget projection (MoD + MoI spending) for each year from 2009 to 2010?
Perhaps three projections. Optimistic projection. Middle projection. Low spending projection.
Perhaps define three possible end states for the ISF in 2020 depending on which of the spending paths the GoI and MoF chooses.
Al Maleki, perhaps you can give a stab at what you think the ISF budgets will be between 2009 and 2020?
DJ, how much do you think the ISF will spend on procurement in calendar year 2009? 2010?
Perhaps we could further break it down by procurement, salaries, operations. Another way to break it down would be MoI, Iraqi Air Force, Special Forces, rest of MoD. (because the Iraqi navy is pretty small.)
DJ, do the IzAF (Iraqi Air Force) need 20 T 50 trainers? Could they buy 10 T 50 trainers, and 10 F/A 50 light attack aircraft instead?
The total confirmed Iraqi attack/fighter fixed wing order estimate as of this time:
-24 AT-6B trainers
-36 F-16s (are they block 50/52 or block 60?)
-20 T 50 (maybe a combination of T 50 and F/A 50)
Total of 80 fighter/attack fixed wing confirmed to be on order.
24 AT-6B probably have a sticker price of $250 million. Including spares and munitions, about $400 million. Life time operations cost + procurement = about $100 million per aircraft over 20 years.
So about $2.4 billion over 20 years.
F-16 costs about $400 million over 20 years. T 50 or F/A 50 cost about $300 million over 20 years.
So the cost over the next 20 years:
$2.4 billion for 24 AT-6Bs
$14.4 billion for 36 F16s
$6.0 billion for 20 T 50
Total budget over 20 years = $22.8 billion. Is this a reasonable estimate for IzAF costs for their 80 attack/fighter fixed wing on order?
DJ, when do you see the next AT-6B order? Can’t they use AT 6Bs for trainers, allowing them to buy fewer T 50 trainers (and buy F/A 50 light attack jets instead)?
From Where did you bring the number 20 of the Korean Jets ??
No i meant 252 F-16 ,,, is it possible ??
and do you think after 2016 US May sell F-35 to Iraq ??
News about France :
Defense Minister Abdul Qader Al Ubaidi and National Security Council Mowaffaq Al Rubaie announced that the coming stage will focus on upgrading intelligence in Iraq in order to face the phase prior to US Forces withdrawal from Iraq.
Meanwhile, Defense Ministry spokesman Brigadier Mohammed Al Askari declared that Defense Minister will visit France starting next week after meeting in Baghdad with Eurocopter chairman, a helicopter manufacturer firm.
Source : http://www.alsumaria.tv/en/Iraq-News/1-29222-Iraq-to-upgrade-intelligence-before-US-exit.html
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Do you think that we will look for French Jets too ,, Oh god bless Raffle
Or een Look for the AMX series Tanks or Mirage ??
anand
1. Almaleki was asking about jets. The AT-6B is a turbo-prop.
2. They are already buying 20 T-6As for basic flight trainers.
3. What they are looking at in the T/A-50 is a dual-role trainer/attack aircraft. (3 varients: T-50; TA-50; A-50)
4. They require a JET trainer. Flight characteristics are considerably different between a prop and a jet.
Almaleki:
1. I have never claimed that Iraq would buy 252 F-16s.
2. I made that blindingly clear in the comments section when dealing with the last person that tried to put words in my mouth on this subject.
3. What I projected last fall was 252 “fighters”.
3A. The T/A-50 can be used in a light-fighter role.
3B. I pick my words carefully. Enought error is going to creap in without me being sloppy.
As to AMXs, only about 400-500 are currently in disposal and 150 of that is transfering to Cyprus.
Also the AMX has no upgrade program for 120mm.
(Yes TW, I have been keeping an eye on that possibility. Looking thiner every day though.)
The Rafale is more expensive than the F-16 and the F-35 is not only even more expensive, but is currently restricted to formal US allies. Actual signed formal treaty of alliance. Not the bogus MSM claimed definition.
They are probably discussing the delivery sched and options on the ordered EC-635s. 30 bought with option for 20 more. Such helos are also used in armed recon. Recon is an intelligence function.
One of the recent blogger-roundtables was with an advisor to Iraqi Intel. He felt that the need was for 40,000 personnel in intel. A 20x increase. That seems excessive until you consider that Recon/Scout Battalions/Companies are otherwise officially known as “Intelligence, Surveilance, and Reconnaissance” units. They are standing up the ISR Battalions this year.
SecDef Gates is already hinting at reducing the F-35 production budget by one third, with all that that entails. Everything after that is politics.
===
262 F-16’s is a remote possibility a half decade or so hence, assuming Iraq is willing to accept second hand older A and B models from third parties with lots of airframe hours and somewhat spotty maintenance records. And the assuming the current US government is willing to authorize such a transfer.
But thats just loose conjecture…
===
Anand: You still pestering Michael Yon? That’s where I remember you from…
===
Busy thread. Nice job DJ (and Bill).
YESTERDAYS
LUNCH,
R
FW : DJ
1- and i didnt said that you Did Claimed but from the news they want 252 Jet ,, then do you think that Iraq Can Buy 252 F-16 ,, Not like i am telling you that you claimed but asking you not like that [deleted-see comments policy] who asked that LockHead Cant produce 54 Jet Per Year and Blaa Blaa ….
2-About AMXs ,, it is an Example ,, I mean we could Buy other Helos from France or Mirages or Anti – Armor Missiles ( For Air and Tanks ) as we Dont have that Capability , and i thought that France could Help us on our Navy and Marines these are the Thing i Looked and Liked :
1-Dassulat Mirage 2000-5 or 2000-9
2-APILAS Anti Armor Missile
3-Eurocopter Tiger As we need Heavy Attack Helos
4-AMX-30
5-ERC 90 Sagaie
6-AMX 10 RC
7-VAB
8-VBCI
9-TRF1 artillery
10-CAESAR
11-AMX-30 AuF1
12-Mistral surface to air
13-Roland
Another Question :
SomeBody Modified the Wiki about Iraq Having 500 BTR-60 is that Right ???
Almaleki:
1. The news got that number (252)from my article. They replaced “fighter” with F16. Which is why I get very irritated on that subject. It originates with a mangling of my writings and analysis. (Nobody else payed attention to what the General was saying and put the five-year plan together with what the first year of it indicated. They just used my numbers and mangled the details…)
2. Some of that French equipment, Iraq already has, in a non-operational status. Which is what the report of spare parts sale as part of the deal for EC-635s from France is about. (for 1980s bought armor): ERC-90s and AML-90s.
No. Iraq does not have 600 BTR-60s. The only armor bought that numbered 600 was the Polish DZIK3 4×4 light APCs.
Anybody can change wiki. It is the least trustworthy site in existence for that reason.
THX DJ
Its Holiday Here ,, My Eyes or on PC :
Anyway this is a Report By me from Hurra Iraq TV i just Watched this is some good News :
1- Iraqi Airforce : The Iraqi Airforce talks with the US to giveaway the Military Airports that they can use it fielding their Fighter Jets !!!!!!????? ( Do we Have Ones ?? ) and The AirForce Leader talked about it and Said that the Iraqi Fighter Jets are being Built and will be delivered SOON ( The F-16 Deal He Meant By OLD) and the Iraqi Side Just Signed some Deals with The French Side For Heavy Attack Helo and FIGHTER JETS ( thats what i liked ) and some Trainers with Jet Capability ( T-50 MY guess ) that they Could use their Fighters ASAP … and some Deals for Mid Transport Planes and Helos with several Countries ….
2-Minister Of Interior Spoke to alhurra about Iraq Is going to build 70 High Tech CheckPoints in Baghdad for going to Take the responsibility there from The Iraqi Army ,, those Have Cameras , IED Detectors , Fuel , Swat Officers , Women and more than 50 Vehicle Each ( Nissan Patrol )
3- Hilla Emergency Response Units Made an Operation they Captured with 19 in North Hilla and who made the IED that Destroyed Adam Restaurant and in North they Captured two Leaders of NON-ISLAMIC Iraqi Country in Hilla and More than 10 Captured and Killed while the Police and INP are Street Cleaners !!!
4-Operation Storm In Basrah which Started from Engaging the North BASRAH-IRAN Borders ( UMM-Alrsas Island ) untill AlQarnah with More than 100 Captured And 1000 Heavy and Light Weapons .. The Army Did this but they were Armed with M2 BROWING ( almost all of the Humvees and with AK not M16 … )
Any Way i will check the MOD Website for Info ..
AnyWay Iraq And Turkey Are going to Announce Military Alliance in The next Month :
http://www.hewarat.dk/hewarat_data.php?sid=19564
Almaleki
Look at the Iraqi Air Force listing on the OOB page.
The problem is not the number of runways, the problem is trained base support personnel and support facilities.
you mean support persons cuz they want the whole airports with th buildings and also inventory
how many F-16 are in Iraq
Did You ever thought About that we are going to taje the American F-16 Fielded in Iraq and Salvage them as in my concern are all C/D Types 50/52 Block Right ??
Info About Iraqi Bases function By US Side or Destroyed these make Super Bases Most of them are AIRPORTS
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_377.shtml
I liked Samaara Base
Hi DJ
Great article as always, great to see so many of my Iraqi brothers on line. As you know I always break the best news, today on Al-Hurra Iraqi Airforce commander al-barazengi said that; Iraq has ordered transport aircraft, jet trainers, and fighter aircraft. He also said that the deal with French was finalized and the defense minister is to finish some minor details.
As for the M1s I have read the article on defense Industry daily that mentioned Iraq was getting the M1 SA, and I want to set the record strait Iraq will get the TUSK upgrade but not RA Armor and not the remote weapons station.
What do think DJ?
P.S/ I don’t want any one to forget that I’m the person who broke the news about Iraq getting the T-50
Al-Maleki
Listen your new to this site don’t throw numbers around without double checking, the report said 16 check points around Baghdad. Some of us take this blog very seriously. We’ve always had a trust that what ever we gave Elliott was the real thing ( intaa fahem low laa).
I mean trained support personnel and the right tools and support equipment.
Their are no reports of turnovers of US aircraft to Iraq. The USAF can’t afford to donate aircraft with our budget cuts….
Dual use airfields are common worldwide. One side is the millitary base and the other is the civil airport. The shared runways are in the middle.
BIAP and New Al Muthanna Air Base are set up that way.
The air bases listed as operational or planned in the OOB are based on Iraqi Air Force survey activities, MNF-I response to an inquiry, and MNSTC-I’s map of air bases planned and existing that is on their site.
– Taji, New Al Muthanna, Kirkuk, and Basrah are operational.
– Kut, Tallil, and Habbenayah look to be currently in the process of being made operational.
– Al Asad, Irbil, H2, Suwayrah, and Tikrit appear to be planned by 2012.
I can think of four more possibles that are not on the list yet: Najaf, Balad, Q-West, and Sinjar.
I heard it 70 Sorry i was in Hurray ,, You Speak Arabic ,, Well Before you Comment See the Others Comments we Talked about everything you said …
and Baraazanji said Attack Capability and Fighters and Jet Trainers and Mid Transport
We Have A sentence in the Arabian Nation :
Eye Shut Up , Becuz Others Have Eyes …
DJ
What do you think that Iraqis is looking for as Jets more than the F-16 and F/A-50 …. as we also need Air superiority and Interception Jets … and what do you think About the MIG-25 as they are very good and most of them are Almost Operational !!!! but need to just clean the Dust From ,, What do you say ??
jack winters at March 19, 2009 2:59 PM ET:
“As for the M1s I have read the article on defense Industry daily that mentioned Iraq was getting the M1 SA, and I want to set the record strait Iraq will get the TUSK upgrade but not RA Armor and not the remote weapons station.”
MNSTC-I is calling the SA and so is the SAO. The TUSK upgrade is also mentioned and GDLS announced the order for the second set of M1s. I had not seen mention of RA armor in reporting for either order.
If you have a problem with DID reporting, take it up with them. They may quote me and I may regularly correct them or tip them off to items, but they are a seperate entity…
As to the TA-50, I knew it was a possible in fall of 2007. Remember Major Tony Sidoti? He put the data packages together for CAFTT to provide to IMoD…
If they bought the TA-50s the way they did the Texans, then we are looking at 20 T-50s and 36 A-50s. One Training Squadron and two Attack Squadrons.
I am currious about what changed in the French deal that required further finalization. Did they exercise the option for 20 more EC-635s or add something else?
Transports are the C-130Js.
Jet Trainers are the T-50s.
Fighters are F-16s (plus A-50s?).
I wonder when the APC choise will be made…
Are You American ,, From Where did you learned Iraqi Arabic ??
NO NO MID TRANSPORT i think it willl be More Beechraft
COULD ANYBODY TELL ME FROM WHERE DID YOU BROUGHT THE NUMBER 20 and didnt the Iraqis Order more Texan with the Order of the more 140 Tank ???
Almaleki:
Are you joking? The MiG-25s were buried. Do you know what sand in the works can do to an aircraft? Plus they are no longer built or used in Russia. That means there is a major parts problem.
And they were not that good to begin with. They were built to intercept bombers, not for ACM.
The F16 is a good fighter and is a capable of using AMRAAM. Turkey uses F-16s and F-4s. If Iraq absolutely feels it needs an intercepter with longer legs, get F15s.
Before that, I would look at getting some E-2 Hawkeyes first…
” MNSTC-I is calling the SA and so is the SAO. The TUSK upgrade is also mentioned and GDLS announced the order for the second set of M1s. I had not seen mention of RA armor in reporting for either order. ”
Pack of Questions :
1- What is SAO ???
2-WHAT IS GDLS and please i would use Link ,, kkkkk i am bad in weapons …
3-Then it is ordered then do you think that we are after 5 to 7 Months are going to order More 140 Tank ?
4-What is RA Armor ???
E-2 Hawkeye
isnt that like The Awacks ??
I thought we Better take 100 F-16 100 F-15 52 F/A-50 and Solve the Problemo
——————————————————
Do you think that we could buy weapons from Russia ??
I mean They Have Good Stuff in All Areas , and so does China or we are going to stick with US and Never Develop ??
Al- Maleki
Read this link
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/M1-Abrams-Tanks-for-Iraq-05013
GDLS is the company that makes the M1, Iraq has ordered the second group of 140 in December check DSCA.
As for RA it means reactive armor, what it means is when an anti tank weapon hits the armor, the armor blows outward pushing the blast away from the tank.
( fahem alyaa aghaaty )
Like the Shotra in The T-90 Yes ??
we dont use Aghaaty that is Baghdad Stuff
I lost the DCSA Link Help !!!!
I am Child For Gods seek i must Shut Up
Almaleki at March 19, 2009 3:22 PM ET: NO NO MID TRANSPORT i think it willl be More Beechraft
– No. He is refering to the 6 C-130Js in the FMS notices in July. They finally contracted them.
Posted by Almaleki at March 19, 2009 3:25 PM ET:
The FMS notices included 20 T-6A Trainers and seperately 36 AT-6B light Attack.
– All of the training aircraft ordered or shopped for to date have used 20 as the standard number for the squadron.
– For the helos, the standard appears to be 24.
– For Fighter and Attack it appears to be 18.
They appear to be factoring in a couple more spares for the training squadrons. Smart move given how students fly…
Posted by Almaleki at March 19, 2009 3:28 PM ET:
1- What is SAO ???
– Security Assistance Office. They are the people that arrange US FMS sales. Facilitators for arms sales via the US Government.
2-WHAT IS GDLS and please i would use Link ,, kkkkk i am bad in weapons …
– General Dynamics Land Systems. They build the M1s. http://www.gdls.com/programs/abrams.html I saw the Tusk component press release, because I am on their e-mail distibution for all press releases.
3-Then it is ordered then do you think that we are after 5 to 7 Months are going to order More 140 Tank ?
– I expect Iraq to order 140 M1s per year.
– – The July notice was for the first order that is now being delivered. M1A1 SA. Delivery to be complete by Aug 2010.
– – The Dec notice was for the second order. The long lead-time components have just been ordered by GDLS and they include TUSK. That means the deal for the second set is signed.
I confirmed that they are two seperate orders with MNSTC-I SAO. Since they arranged the orders with IMoD, they would know…
4-What is RA Armor ???
– Reactive Armor. We rarely export that.
Posted by Almaleki at March 19, 2009 3:30 PM ET:
– E-2 is the USN version of AWACS. Turbo-prop. Exportable.
– More like 90/90/72. 18 per squadron for fighters. 14 squadrons. My bet is it will be more F16s, more A-50s, maybe some French birds, and no F15s. Unless the price of oil goes way up…
Do you think that we could buy weapons from Russia ??
– Russia is undependable ATT. Look up the junk MiG-29s they tried to sell Algeria. Spares are an issue and they just are not dependable. There is a very good reason why Iraq has not been buying from Russia.
What IMoD might do is buy Mi17s from them. There are alternate sources of spares and support. The IqAF has 900 Mi17 quallified pilots and engineers that just need a refresure course and their birds…
DSCA link to Iraqi related releases.
http://www.dsca.mil/sc_news/fms_iraq/index.htm
Look at end July 2008 and about 9 Dec 2008 for the notices I am talking about.
Ignore the 392 LAV-25, 400 Stryker and 400 M1117. They did the paperwork on all three as part of a competition that also includes Romanian APC. Only one of those will go thru.
Al-Maleki
I’m an American of Iraqi origin jack winters is my internet name(nick name) and I’m from Baghdad.
And no RA is not like the Shatora as you call it, RA is negative defense which means it waits to be hit, while the shatora is a positive system meaning it searches for a threat and then activates and attacks which would destroy the weapon before it hits the body of the tank ok.
China copies everybody. So their gear is just copies of older gear from Russia, France, and US. Their refusal to follow copywrite laws is a major issue and their gear will always be behind until they start designing their own.
Russia’s arms production and support is a mess. Undependable and plenty of rip-offs of late.
If you are buying military aircraft, 85% of the worlds combat aircraft are designed/manf in the US, Russia, China, France, and UK.
The five permanent members of the UN are the countries that arm the world…
Hi DJ
This might be off a bit but I had to ask, it’s about the navy first is there any news on the boats that Iraq ordered in December???
And is there a reason why Iraq orders boats with only guns and no missiles???
And my last question since you know a lot about this stuff, is why Iraq always orders support ships when they can go back to shore and get support, and support for what it’s not like they are supply ships or any thing, right?
jack winters
The Maylasians could not make delivery. The December FMS order is replacement PBs and support ships for those terminated orders.
There was some confusion for a couple of months, as the Malaysian canx was not made public until this month.
Support ships allow you to patrol longer and helps you repair/tow your vessel when something goes wrong. Take it from a retired squid, support vessels are very necessary. Two is the minimum required to ensure one is available to go out in an emergency…
gents.
since this thread has de-generated into a free for all discussion. I may also add my own brief hypothesis:
Iraq needs a low cost airforce for self defence purposes. There are 36 F16s on order. We can consider those to be the front-line interceptor elements.
In addition Iraq needs to have some way of detecting aerial intruders (which it does not at the moment, save for 4 ATC radars…). Thus Iraq will certainly need AEW&C element as a matter of course (otherwise rendering the F16s pretty much useless).
I do not see Iraq buying more than the 36 F16s for now. It’s enough to equip 3 squadrons North/south/centre and with 1 airborne AWACS per sector Iraq can have adequate aerial coverage from 6 AEW&C aircraft (perhaps one extra airframe for the maintenance gap).
I know, its very little by middle-eastern standards. But really, I think Iraq doesn’t in fact NEED much more than this for purely defensive purposes, and if a full scale invasion takes place from a neighbouring country, Iraq can rely on the USN and USAF to come to its aid (I know, it sounds like Korea in the 1960s… but in fact Iraq IS like Korea in the 1960s… so the comparisons are valid).
As for the T50 / F/A50 aircraft. I think its something that would fit in very well to augment the F16s, especially to free the F16s up for a pure fighter-interceptor role. As DJ said, hypothetically (and going by Iraq’s historical purchase record for the past 60 years or so) 20 trainer / 36 F/A50 would seem prudent.
In this thread I read unfortunately a lot of gung-ho things about Iraq buying hundreds of fighters and thousands of battle tanks. Please If we are going to be realistic in assessing the future of Iraq’s military then the issue of Iraq having a democratically elected government is a major point retarding such dreams of officers and of people who (I can only presume) live a very pampered life in or outside Iraq. What I mean to say is, an overtly militarist government will inevitably take resources away from constructing the country and investing in civilian infrastructure, farming and industry, such a government can expect to get short shrift in future elections.
I do hope the basrawi almaleki can agree with me on this… so that people in basra can remember what having water from the taps, or having canals filled with water rather than rotting rubbish…
sheytanelkebir:
I agree that F16s will probably be the primary fighter.
However, as someone who has spent plenty of time in the airdale comunity and who is aware of the capabilities of the 800lb gorrilla next door to Iraq:
– 6x F16 squadrons with 18 birds each is minimum.
– 12 Hawkeyes (1 Sq) would do the trick for 24-hour coverage of north, south and central.
My bet is the TA-50 buy turns out to be 92 total.
– a 20 bird training squadron
– 4x Attack Squadrons with 18 birds each.
I suspect the French are going to get a 4 squadron sale of jets to Iraq.
Remember, you do not plan your defense based on today’s political climate or the minimums needed, you plan it for when the relations go wrong and always build an insurance factor in. Sometimes the situation can go wrong overnight.
As to how much armor is needed:
– Syria has 3,700 tanks and the support armor to go with it.
– Iran has 1,800 tanks and the support armor to go with them. They are upgrading their older M60s with T80 components.
2,100 tanks is a reasonable defensive mix for Iraq. They do not all have to be M1A1s, so long as they have the support components.
That is why I am so sure that IMoD will end up going with mostly used armor. New costs too much.
What I think they are now doing is getting the big ticket items out of the way up-front in the purchasing ment to be delivered in Phase 2 (2011-2015).
Sheytanelkebir
Look, no one has dreams, DJ is quoting what Iraqi commanders and MNTC-I is saying. The other thing is the al-Maliki government is already spending 8-9 billion on defense and security. In one year they bought 280 tanks for 4.4 billion!! Could they have gotten cheaper yes they could but this is what was decided on, because frankly, if we had good neighbors then we don’t need to spend all of this money right. I mean without us doing anything and Iran is in Iraqi national waters they don’t except any thing from you and Kuwait same thing or do think turkey is better?? You need to face it without security nothing is going to happen, and if you are weak then no one will let build anything.
Hi DJ
Your assessment is good from a militaristic perspective (i.e. working on a worst-case scenario of Iraq being invaded By Syria and Iran jointly). however, as an engineer, there is also something called cost-benefit-analysis. What this means that once you get to a certain scale the $ value of the expansion starts to go down (from a purely defensive perspective).
If we go by the old maxim that the attacker needs to have 3 times the strength of the defender to have a high certainty of success, and taking into account that Iran has at most 1000 and syria another 1000 -semi-modern MBTs, then Iraq can effectively guarantee itself from outward attack with a force of approx 800 modern MBTs. I don’t see a reason to waste money on second-line MBTs. Simply 800 modern MBTs + 100 older tanks for training and secondary use is more than enough (lifecycle costs are not $0 as we both know).
With regards to front line aviation. You are saying, hypothetically 110 F16s + 96 F/A50 + 72 “rafale” or M2000?
That would put Iraq on a similar footing as Turkey and only slightly short of Israel in airpower terms… certainly its overkill to act as a deterrent against the decrepit Iranian and Syrian airforces (read today’s crash of a 25 year old ex-iraqi SU24… which is the pride of Iran’s fleet for an idea).
Syria has maybe 60 semi-modern combat assets, and Iran maybe 80 semi-modern combat aircraft. Iraq can more than stop any ideas from them by having a fleet of 36 F16s and 36 F/A50 with an effective AEW asset (which both iran and syria lack). Their extensive SAM networks are of no consequence, since this is a defensive play by Iraq…
just my idea… I know it sounds horrible to the iraqi militarists… I’m just thinking how many apartment blocks and urban trams I can build for the price of 1200 battle tanks and 200 fighter aircraft… and how many iraqis are currently homeless (shortfall of 2 MILLION housing units in Iraq).
From what I remember, those buried MiG-25’s and SU-25’s were ripped to pieces by the recovery teams as they pulled them out. Even if they had been recovered intact, they had been buried with no protection from the sand and no thought to the effects of the weight of the sand on the aircrafts structure.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&rls=com.microsoft:en-us&ei=2rnCSbXkIMyQmQfbjfTwCw&resnum=0&q=iraq's%20buried%20mig-25s&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
They’re toast, never to fly again.
NEXT
STOP
PIMA,
R
sheytanelkebir:
Your flaw is that you are not considering scale and the fog of war. The old maxim only applies at the local tactical level. Not at operational/stategic. Forces can win while outnumbered if they can concentrate at key points.
Iran and Iraq has a 1,000 km border. That is why they are looking at 6 corps frontages. You cannot stretch a corps frontage further and be effective.
Warfare is an art, not a science.
You never have all the data.
You are always holding a reserve or using lesser capable 2nd line forces as a screen for those unknown enemy force that the recon missed.
And you rarely have enough warning or enough time to react.
Even these days, warfare includes a lot of guess-work on where the enemy is going.
The proper employment of tanks is not to kill other tanks, it is to overrun infantry and exploit the breakthru to destroy the rear-echelon supply types. Thus destroying the ability of the enemy force to fight. That being said, tanks are the second most effective anti-tank weapon. Helos are better.
I expect the corps to keep the heavy divs in reserve for countering Iranian attacks.
The scale of the territorial borders that need to be covered are what demands those numbers. Otherwise, your few tanks and aircraft will inevitably be at the wrong place and at the wrong time.
Iraq has a 1,000 km wide border with Iran. And only a 100km strategic depth. No room for major retreats. Take a map and mark what a 100km advance from the Iranian border would do to Iraq.
And Iraq will have to honor the possible threat from Iran’s formal ally. That will require at least two heavy divs to match the existing Syrian forces in western Syria. Plus probably 4 inf or motorized divs.
The bean-counters are always losing battles because they miss those type of basic details and try to fight wars scientifically. War is not a science. Science is just what you use to manufacture the tools of war. Not for their employment…
As to your wish for housing, the first job of government is to provide security. Without that security, there is no houses or jobs or lives or a government. Everything else fails if you do not provide security.
Render at March 19, 2009 5:35 PM ET:
You got that right. Scrap-metal in the junkyards. Unsalvagable.
PS Do not expect the US to save Iraq in a future war. The GoI is not making any such assumption.
The agreements that exists between Iraq and the US, do not include the US defending Iraq from a foreign invasion.
That would be a mutual defense treaty or treaty of alliance and would require US Senate confirmation to be legal. We are not a legal ally of Iraq’s.
Our legal status in relation to Iraq at this time is that of a co-beligerant. Our military works with Iraq’s military, but are not formal allies.
The list of formal US allies is not as long as most people think…
Wow this thread has truly exploded in a sea of speculative conjecture.
Anyway: DJ, I have been looking at the situation in regards to my theory on the AMX-30’s and you’re absolutely right. It seems that there may be other countries looking to line up to take those tanks of the hands of the French and with them curbing production of the Leclerc they (the Armee de Terre that is) aren’t going to do away with ALL of them anytime soon.
Secondly- I’m glad you brought up the info about the Malaysian boats. I was wondering what had become of that order, but if I am to understand this right, it would have been the Malaysians, not Fincantieri that was building the OSV’s? If so I was under the wrong impression this whole time! Though I suppose that would make sense.
Moving on to the Arty: to be honest I had considered that the K9 would be on a short list of potential SP arty systems for the IA but always discounted it in favor of smaller or more mobile systems (i.e. G6/52 Rhino) but now that the Iraqi’s and Koreans appear to be (excuse the internet slang here) BFF’s now that really does begin to make sense. But I have also been doing my homework and given the fact that the Iraqi’s have opened the doors to Korean investment in business and Infrastructure, a Korean contender for an armored 8×8 is looking more and more plausible every day. Of which I would expect either the Samsung Techwin one or the Doosan Infracore one to be the top contenders. But on top of that both those company’s have some aces up their sleeves to give even more appeal to potentially lucrative IA contracts. With Samsung, it is in fact the K9, which it offers as a complete package with support vehicles for its export customers (K10 ammo carrier and an armored FO vehicle.)
Doosan on the other hand may have the weaker hand in playing the armored wheeled vehicle card because its design is 6×6 only (Samsung’s is more like the Pandur, with 6×6 and 8×8 variants.) But they do also make the excellent K21 NIFV which is sort of a Bradley analog. This vehicle which has already achieved some export success (Malaysia) makes it a very possible contender to eventually (emphasis on eventually) replace their third-hand BMP-1’s.
Ok thats enough from me for a while.
Posted by sheytanelkebir at March 19, 2009 4:34 PM ET:
” In this thread I read unfortunately a lot of gung-ho things about Iraq buying hundreds of fighters and thousands of battle tanks. Please If we are going to be realistic in assessing the future of Iraq’s military then the issue of Iraq having a democratically elected government is a major point retarding such dreams of officers and of people who (I can only presume) live a very pampered life in or outside Iraq. What I mean to say is, an overtly militarist government will inevitably take resources away from constructing the country and investing in civilian infrastructure, farming and industry, such a government can expect to get short shrift in future elections. ”
We ( The Iraqis ) Had an Experience on Not Having good Army ,, our Cousins , Uncles and Parents ,, They all experienced that ,, and we dont want to try It Again ,, Iraq is NOT Korea ,, Iraq is Country even Older than America and even Is the Whole Middle East Countries ( Without Israel ) ,, Iraq Has its Big Turn in Politics and Militarily Conflict In The Area , And US cant Help Iraq from Every Danger as you see ,, The may give Aid in Money But not losing Soldiers in wars as Iran isn’t such Small Army and it will Defend Much Better Than Saddam Did in 2003 they Have Good Military Leaders and Military Tactics not Like Saddam who NEVER served as soldier …
we Cant as you Imagine to Build and Whatever without security as an Iraqi LIVING IN IRAQ i would rather an Good Army not good Services without Defenses ,, Iraq s Just A big Military in The Area Just as The Syrian , Iranian , Egyptian and Israeli and i want to now what did Israel Did For America that Americans Like it but Love it that Much ??? Israel is a country that Hates You and Your Religion and is the Terror on Its Eyes ?? i think this is Enough for You and UKs
Posted by DJ Elliott at March 19, 2009 4:58 PM ET:
I hope DJ if we need 6 Squadrons that we have 5xF-16 and 1xsome 4.5 Gen Jet for Baghdad or Diyala or to the Deph of the Iranian Borders
but if we had BLOCK 60 Jets then we wouldn’t need the Last One cuz it will all be 4.5 Gen
I think that DJ Gave you good Lesson Here and for you not Remember it this is a Quote :
” Your flaw is that you are not considering scale and the fog of war. The old maxim only applies at the local tactical level. Not at operational/stategic. Forces can win while outnumbered if they can concentrate at key points.
Iran and Iraq has a 1,000 km border. That is why they are looking at 6 corps frontages. You cannot stretch a corps frontage further and be effective.
Warfare is an art, not a science.
You never have all the data.
You are always holding a reserve or using lesser capable 2nd line forces as a screen for those unknown enemy force that the recon missed.
And you rarely have enough warning or enough time to react.
Even these days, warfare includes a lot of guess-work on where the enemy is going.
The proper employment of tanks is not to kill other tanks, it is to overrun infantry and exploit the breakthru to destroy the rear-echelon supply types. Thus destroying the ability of the enemy force to fight. That being said, tanks are the second most effective anti-tank weapon. Helos are better.
I expect the corps to keep the heavy divs in reserve for countering Iranian attacks.
The scale of the territorial borders that need to be covered are what demands those numbers. Otherwise, your few tanks and aircraft will inevitably be at the wrong place and at the wrong time.
Iraq has a 1,000 km wide border with Iran. And only a 100km strategic depth. No room for major retreats. Take a map and mark what a 100km advance from the Iranian border would do to Iraq.
And Iraq will have to honor the possible threat from Iran’s formal ally. That will require at least two heavy divs to match the existing Syrian forces in western Syria. Plus probably 4 inf or motorized divs.
The bean-counters are always losing battles because they miss those type of basic details and try to fight wars scientifically. War is not a science. Science is just what you use to manufacture the tools of war. Not for their employment…
As to your wish for housing, the first job of government is to provide security. Without that security, there is no houses or jobs or lives or a government. Everything else fails if you do not provide security. ”
—————————————————————-
Jack Winters what is your real Name , Did you serve in the American Army and where are you living Now ?
I am trying to budget what the ISF would cost going forward.
Assuming 20 year lifestyles for each platform:
M1A1IS tank: $20 million over 20 years ($8 million acquisition + spares + maintenance; $12 million fuel)
F 16: $400 million over 20 years ($200 million acquisition + spares + maintenance; $200 million fuel)
T 50 Trainer: $400 million over 20 years ($120 million acquisition + spares + maintenance; $280 million fuel) {They are trainers after all, and will be flown an average of about 2 to 3 times as much as other aircraft. However their fuel efficiency would be twice as high since they are lighter and wouldn’t fly loaded with munitions}
F/A 50 : $300 million over 20 years ($170 million acquisition + spares + maintenance; $130 million fuel) {They are trainers after all, and will be flown an average of about 3 times as much as other aircraft. However their fuel efficiency would be twice as high since they are lighter and wouldn’t fly loaded with munitions}
Dassault Rafale fighters: $500 million over 20 years (more expensive than the F16 to acquire and maintain.)
Are these estimates in the right ball park?
let us hope then that the price of oil shoots right up to pay for all that equipment and people taken out of economic activity…
I’m not trying to be anti-anything here… just showing a different perspective on how the country can develop.
as for you alamaleki… I hope you agree with me that a LOT of people in Iraq will disagree with your assessment on priorities for funding.
you can build a massive army, throw all the money away at it… and then end up defending a (pardon my language) cesspit rather than a country.
Just by the fact that your country will have no infrastructure and no industry and no entertainment facilities or modern farms and an army of people desperate to leave the country is enough of a deterent to foreign invaders…. more so than the large numbers of tanks and aircraft.
It seems that the Pakistan and North Korea model of “military first” is being encouraged… I really hope that this is not the thinking within the government elements.
DJ. A formal defence treaty between Iraq and the US is EXACTLY what Iraq needs for its defence. We should buy just enough weapons and associated “advisors” to ensure we can have such a treaty. It would of course be mutually beneficial to both sides. Iraq can focus on nation building, the US cna keep in check local belligerents from a secure base.
Just my opinion.
you cant Build without those Elements :
1- Army and Police
2- Electricity
3- Education
4- No Corruption
and those are the Iraqi Government Priorities ,, You are speaking Like the MOD takes the Whole 64 Billion ,, The Whole Deal with Americans if it kills itself will take almost 25 – 30 Billion for almost 7 Years … i think that the Ministry of Power Takes more than that Per Year BUT i still Think that Iraq Have to get An Army Better than Iranian and Syrian and Aid from Turkey , Saudi , Jordan , Kuwait and Sunni in Iraq ….
So think Amigo ,, And Even with Some People think that this is much as Iraq Is the Biggest Importer for Weapons in The World in 2008 .. But i still think this Must stay until we Have any army that Can Defend its self WITHOUT HELP ….
If you Have a Mind which i doubt you Have to see that the Americans are Training the Iraqi Soldiers for Self Missions with NO Help not like with the Khaliji Countries ….
Iraq is Not A small Country its 450 , 000 Km Big so it needs Big Army
Anand When You say 400 Milion do you mean for one Fighter or for the Whole 36 ??
This Article is going to Hit Genis Numbers kkkk
in our Islamic Religion we have this talk for One of Prophets friends :
The Fire with Fire and The Eye By Eye and the starter shall be Worst
النار بالنار و العين بالعين و البادىء أظلم
if Iraq is Attacked the Enemy have to know that we will Attack their Land Just as they Did if we Just Defend we will be considered Pussies
almaleki.
1-my comments were intended for the authors of the blog (and in a democracy everyone is entitled to an opinion, including you, and me).
2-the total OPEX for the aircraft was for EACH airframe not the complete fleet – puts things in perspective doesn’t it.
3- In order for Iraq to build a very large military as proposed in the attached document by DJ would mean that 25% + Of Iraq’s GNP is used for defence purposes. This may seem “normal” to someone from the “qadisiya generation” (i.e. the generation who grew up knowing nothing but saddam and militarism), but I can assure you that such a level of defence expenditure is ABNORMAL in the Extreme.
Iran, for example, hasn’t bought modern fighter aircraft in quantity since 1979! and still relies on the remains from those weapons to this day. However, Iran is a country where there are 8 cities with METROS and urban railways built since the 1990s… they produce 1M cars per annum and the oil component of their GDP is now 20% or so… I think there is an inverse correlation between military spending (as a % of GNP) and economic development and services.
Understand that Iraq built 10,000 housing units in 2008… at the current construction rate Iraq will have enough housing units for its CURRENT needs (2.5M units) within 2500 years of construction… similarly 25%+ of Iraq’s population is unemployed (and of those in employment most are in non-job governmental positions as a glorified social-security).
This may seem like off-topic. but its absolutely ON TOPIC. If Iraq becomes a militarist state again, the main threat will be from disgruntled Iraqi citizens rather than external threats. Once this happens, the large military (built ostensibly for external defence) will go back to its old use-case scenario.
Unfortunately the future seems to be set up on this inevitable path if the militarism of the country continues unabated without a holistic view (and an eye on the rear view mirror of the past).
I’m not sure if the fallacy of overt militarism – and its almost inevitable end-game has been taken fully on board by the powers that be or even by the US advisors working with Iraqis there.
Unfortunately there are far too many people in charge today in iraq who were from the old military establishment and who seem to know nothing but militarism, spending and increasing the strength and stature of the military within the nation (with an almost inevitable end-game visa a vis the economy, general populace and democracy…).
a country that is incapable of crushing tomatoes and putting them in metal cans should not be seeking a super-power military.
almaleki I suggest you go visit a normal country, then go back to basra and see if you are happy with the city you live in.
apologies.
at the current rate of construction iraq will meet its current housing shortage in 250 years not 2500 years.
Gentlemen: You are begining to sound like you need a time out. As one of the two moderators on this site I sudjest you take the time to review the comments policy and restrain yourself. Be polite.
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sheytanelkebir: Al Maliki:
The people are already in uniform. The total manpower for this projection is within 100,000 of current manning. The difference is that this projects what the force will look like when the existing forces finish consolidating into their commands (E.G. The 100,000 Peshmerga are absorbed by INP and IA. The Provincial IP Paramilitary are folded into SOF and INP. Etc.)
I expect the GoI to acquire used armor for precisely the reasons you are opposing. New armor costs too much.
The force listed in the article is based on the existing ISF organization and development with the trends projected to the end of the ISF Phase 3 (Security Strategic Independence). I am basing this on GoI practices and policies.
I personnally disagree with current IMoD policy of buying all new, because I do not think the budget will support it. That is the current IMoD policy. Hense the listing of potential alternatives in the article.
Given an average of 70+ for oil, this projection is within the ISF portion of the budget. Even with all M1A1s.
The total force listed is less than half of what the ISF was in 1988, when the population of Iraq was about 60 percent what it is now.
As for housing, why is government building the only way to fix it? That type of thinking is why most of Asia is not developed. Let private industry fill the demand and get government out of it. The KN model is that of socialist dictatorship and such systems are always military centric.
The first and foremost duty of any government is to protect the country and its people. Without that protection, there is no country or people. Everything else is dependent on that basic requirement. Every other function of government fails if security fails. That has been the basis of the social contract between governments and citizens since the first clan organized. You are debating luxory items, not rights.
As to budget, the US budget has military spending as the second largest piece of federal spending, second to servicing our debt. Security first is standard in most of the world. Countries that fail that test fall.
Iraq is not going to sign a formal defense treaty with the US. It is just not on the table. And the proposal for Iraq to join NATO is a fantasy. If Iraq is unwilling to sign a treaty with the US, then what makes people think that GoI will join an alliance of 22 countries that includes the US?
Corruption will always exist. The US has plenty of corruption problems. The trick is to keep it down to managable levels.
The english version of that saying is “The best defense is a good offense.” The reason militaries keep mobil forces in reserve when on the defensive is to provide a counter-attack capability. A strike threat that the enemy has to honor and thus hold back their own reserve. This is true at all levels. While defense tends to be stronger, it surrenders initiative, and is rarely decisive.
Posted by sheytanelkebir at March 20, 2009 7:38 AM ET:
I think this will surprise you But i lived in Dubai for 8 Years ( 1999 – 2007 ) and i think that DJ Answered you in the Other things
Posted by DJ Elliott at March 20, 2009 10:00 AM ET:
If You or Shey.. ( What is you Name ?? ) lived in Iraq in the Southern part Precisely you will know that in 2003 until before 5 Days the Iraqi Gover. didnt Have the Power ( The Army ) that could get the People out of it Oil Houses , Pipelines and Governmental Places who were stolen in 2003 and now we have the capability to get them Out ,, i live in a Govermental Houses for their Employes anyway the Place is for Engineers and Geologists and my nhibour is FUC*EN Driver anyway we dont Need Army let every Body steal from the Government OH Its Freedom ….
ah DJ this man said about the Iraqi Army this :
———————————————————-
This omits a critical difference in Iraqi army organization: operations.
Throughout the ME, excepting Israel, the largest functional military organization is the brigade (about 2000-5000 personnel). While brigades are ordered into divisions (10000-20000), these are paper divisions only. They lack the ability to conduct division level operations, acting as separate organizations instead of as a team.
This is an enormous difference. Three brigades with an effective divisional command can defeat between six and nine separate enemy brigades, all else being equal.
Almost as soon as they were organized, the US military had the Iraqis observing and practicing division-level operations. Every single Iraqi brigade has participated in two or more division-level operations conducted by their own division headquarters. Division-level operations are a permanent part of their organization, and taught at their command and general staff school.
But we didn’t stop there. We gave the Iraqi army a gift worth billions of dollars. Something that only a world-class military has. Corps-level operations. Divisions ordered into Corps (30000-80000), with a Corps headquarters directing their operations.
This was all done with an eye to Iran. Iran fields any number of paper Corps. Their military strongly outnumbers the Iraqi military. Not just their army, but their IRGC.
But the most operations that the Iranians can conduct are at the brigade level. Anything more than that is ad hoc.
So if the Iranians try to attack Iraq, I will give odds that it will be a swift and bloody disaster for them. The Iraqis will cut them to ribbons.
———————————————————
IS IT RIGHT ??
Hey DJ – FYI: looks like the Iraqis want another 140 M1 tanks on top of the earlier order for 140.
http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLM643697
Thoughts?
stratbrat
Old news. I first reported that the 140 M1A1s is an annual buy when I wrote about the meaning of the arms notices in August 2008.
MNSTC-I SAO told me about this second order prior to the second FMS notice being posted December 9, 2008. I wrote about that in the January Update.
Same for the Helos in the article. Old news.
It takes 6 months to a year for the MSM to catch on to what is happening.
Next thing you know they will be writing about the ongoing Iraqi APC competition…
See page 16 of the OOB for links to previous articles. https://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
Hi ,,
Got these news on the M1A1 , the Iraqis Shot their First Round and its Sabot Round ???!! Never Heard of but it looks like Pentration Bomb I will search about it :
the News :
http://www.dvidshub.net/?script=news/news_show.php&id=31598
Picture for training with the Round :
http://www.dvidshub.net/index.php?script=images/images_gallery.php&action=viewimage&fid=159676
It dont look DU for Me ,, Is it ??
———————————————————
France sells 24 military helicopters to Iraq
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hq1ambag-wpkM0vftm13mW_0fQCQ
wHAT YOU EXPECTED
——————————————————–
http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/industrials/defense-solutions-holding–dfsh-update-iraq/
This Man still wants to cut a deat with us He looks for one for 500 M !!!!!!!!
DJ wrote: “It takes 6 months to a year for the MSM to catch on to what is happening. Next thing you know they will be writing about the ongoing Iraqi APC competition…
Speak of the devil…
http://blog.wired.com/defense/2009/03/iraq-continues.html
LOL
That blue colored Sabot is a training round.
Probably just Iron.
Blue is the US code color for inert training rounds.
Sabots usually do not have a warhead anyway. They are a high-velocity 40mm dart fired with a “shoe” around them that detaches when it clears the 120mm barrel. (Sabot is the dutch woden shoe; also the root word for sabotage or “shoe day”.)
DU or Tungsten are used to make the dart dense enough to penetrate vice breaking up on impact. The friction heat of their penitrating tank armor tends to ignight any fuel vapors in the compartment…
Tungsten is good enough for most targets. DU is only used for the really tough armor (like DU secondary plates.)
As to Defense Solutions, they are desperate. Almost bankrupt.
If GoI can get them to sell 1,000 T91/T72s for that 500,000,000, then I say go for it.
Iraq could use the armor.
Just not at the price he has been trying for. 3 million per tank is seriously excesive for used armor…
A little bit of math for you.
500,000,000 divided by 3,000,000 per T91 according to Defense Solutions =
One Mech Div worth of tanks. Approx 160 tanks. A lot fewer than the 2,000 claimed in the earlier stories.
Since only approximately 250 T91s were ever built, that means they have reduced their sights to just selling the tanks in the Polish Army that are being replaced by German Leopards. Either that or they reduced the price considerably…
PS I reserected some comments from the Junk cue again. Multi-links tend to tell the system you are a spammer. And once the system notes you that way, it tends to automatically junk you. It does the same to me periodically, and I moderate the site….
Hi DJ
can you tell us about the 22 Mil-17CT the US DOD bought for iraq, are they the same 26 Mil-17v5 or a new order?? and why do they cost do much?
the other is what the iraqi airforce commander said about iraq wanting to buy 18 F-16block52 and iraqis wanting to get 96 by 2020?
thanks
jack winters:
can you tell us about the 22 Mil-17CT the US DOD bought for iraq, are they the same 26 Mil-17v5 or a new order?? and why do they cost do much?
– New order. MNSTC-I has trained five squadrons of pilots on the Mi-17. And only has two formed/equipped Squadrons. 4th Transport and 15th Spec Ops. As to price, that is because the US is not supposed to deal with that Russian company, so a UAE middleman was required.
the other is what the iraqi airforce commander said about iraq wanting to buy 18 F-16block52 and iraqis wanting to get 96 by 2020?
– Haven’t seen it, but it fits. I have always said that I expect the Iraqis to buy a mix of Jets. This indicates that 5 of the 14 expected Jet squadrons will be F16. Then there is the A-50s and probably the French for the rest…
http://obama.wsj.com/article/07t980ygAw4x3?q=Defense
Liked It then we are going to be the Third or Fourth Air force in the Area After Israel. Turkey Or Saudi ??
That is Better if we Just Have F-16 then The enemy could know a strategy to Destroy but if we have Mix it will be be better Chance ,, I hope we Have the Korean as Trainer and we get from France the M2000 and Raffale …. do we have other country with good relations and sells Jets ??? Like those Who will put their Jets out for New Ones ??
Almaleki:
Thanks for the links.
This is a reduction in the initial order.
The original plan from November 2008, as briefed by the same officer, was for an initial purchase of 36 F16s. Two Squadrons. By 2011.
Now they are talking one F-16 Squadron by 2012.
And they are talking fewer trainers than the 20 in the FMS notice.
The budget crunch strikes again. They are stretching out the buys of high cost items…
Iraq has begun patrolling its borders using UAVs equipped with IR cameras.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LV497196.htm
could they possibly be refering to this:
http://www.dvidshub.net/?script=news/news_show.php&id=31839
or something else….
PS. good news on the F16s. good to see sanity in spending in the government (and it means reliance on the USAF until 2015 at least)… PPS. good to see the Mi17CT (at a good price too… $3.6M each), once again sanity without overt politicking or juvenile “boys toys shopping” by the MoD… lets hope it continues this way.
Well i didnt have time to search it but Heard About it is the UAVs Iraqi Or American ???
And For the Mis Dont we have 54 One is those New 26 or Upgrading with S-8 Rockets ??
Iraqi Mi-17s pilots have been training in air-ground rocketry as well as Night-Vision-Device flying for the last 15 months. Apparently, the NVD flying is the new part.
The question in the reporting on numbers of Mi-17s is how many are operational. At least 10 are used helos from that 2005 Polish buy and may not be operational.
Note: Mi-17s were always planned to be the backbone of the helo transport force. With 900 pilots and engineers quallified in Mi-17s available, that just needed refresure training… (that was in the November 2007 update.)
I do not have any ID on the UAVs, but I suspect they are the hand launched small tactical variety. The bigger versions cost too much and would require congressional approval to give away…
Two Squadrons are in service though, which means they have more than half of their aircraft. 24 is the standard number per squadron.
– 4th Transport Squadron.
– 15th Special Operations Squadron.
Well My Brother Told Me that He saw A report that indicates that it Can Shoot People not Just for survelince
AS the F-16 Buy is More Known are we going to see same Topic on The Air Force I hope ??
Almaleki
That I would like to see.
You are talking armed predators.
And we do not give those away.
I suspect the report was assuming…
As to the F-16s and the IZAF, first I need more data. At this point, no contract is signed. All is still speculative…
Gatling not Hell Fire Missiles
Almaleki
Gatlings are even heavier than Hellfire, plus there is the serious recoil.
Which is why rockets/missiles are used on UAVs…
Gatlings in the air under Iraqi control means helicopters at this time…
no really i am not kitting , i saw the Report on AlHurra 7 Days , They Shot two Terrorists with Gatlings … Ask Jack if he saw the Report
Almaleki
Then it probably was not an UNMANNED Aerial Vehicle (UAV).
Helo or a armed recon aircraft. Both the Cessna C208 and King Air 350 ISR birds have hard-points for Hellfire or gun pods.
FYI: The Monthly update should publish NLT end of monday. The OOB pages and map are already updated.
Well i looked for the other Topics comments and every thing i saw that the Artillary could be bought from East Europe so :
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/dana.htm
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/nora_b52.htm
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/krab.htm
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/wr40_langusta.htm
http://www.military-today.com/artillery/rm_70_modular.htm
Most of them have Nato Ammo so it wouldnot be Hard to obtain Ammo
Or Just Buy ML-RS
NLT ?? And what is that
NLT = No Later Than
According to MNSTC-I, IMoD has not decided on howitzers and/or MLRS yet. Still shopping.
Nothing heavier than 120mm mortars will be fielded this year. Probably 2011 before anything heavier is delivered…
Hi DJ
Today on Iraq T.V. the commander of the ground forces, has given orders to rehabilitate former Iraqi equipment from the old army, and on T.V. they showed rehabilitated T-72s , T-55 , and howitzers. And the program is going full steam ahead.
The other you’re going to laugh at this, but the Iraqi defense minister visit to France where he signed the deal for the 24 Helo’s. DJ you should have seen the visit, the French defense minister himself was showing the French equipment. The Iraqi defense minister flew in the tiger attack helicopter then he flew in EC725 transport helo, and naval panther helo, then they made him drive the leclerc main battle tank. And they said: for Iraq we are willing to sell the equipment in exchange for oil or other suitable arrangements and with no strings attached.
I was thinking to myself after such a treatment why the hell bother going to the US and wait for congress ,and debate with the US DOD we will sell you this but not that. I know Iraq will still go for US equipment no matter what but WOW you should see what the French did
Do you think Iraq will go French DJ ??? I can tell you from what he said he really liked the Navel Panther helo, those helo’s can carry the AS15TT radar guided missiles ,great weapon against boats its used by Kuwait and Saudi.
Any ideas??
PS. The howitzers are 122 mm.
thanks
OOH the program is translated as the protectors of iraq (huma al iraq) on iraqi T.V.
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8958
Syria is buying new new MiG-31Es and MiG-35s according the the above thread. I wonder how many Syria can afford with their disastrous economy.
How well would Iraqi F/A 50 light attack aircraft perform against Syrian MiG-31Es and MiG-35s?
on the subject of huma al iraq. If anyone is interested in watching it, the videos are available online on the Iraqi MOD website, including the full archive of previous episodes.
videos of the weekly military news show
http://www.mod.mil.iq/clips/html/humat_155.html
archive of the Iraqi MOD magazine “Alfursan”
http://www.mod.mil.iq/alforsan/html/al-forsan3.html
list of public tenders by the MoD for infrastructure and supplies
http://www.mod.mil.iq/AR-pages/Tenders/T.html
jack winters: sheytanelkebir:
The Iraqi Army has been salvaging vehicles since 2004.
– All of the T54/55s are salvage.
– All of the MTLBs are salvage.
– 20-30 of the T72s are salvage.
– All of the VCR APCs are salvage. Etc.
The 1st Mech Brigade of the IA was all salvaged T54/55s, MTLBs, and BMP1s, when commissioned in 2005. They have a tradition of making do.
(The 1st Mech Brigade is now the 34th Armored Brigade, 9th Division. Notice the 2-34th Armor Battalion sign in the video.)
However, salvaging artillery that has been intentionally spiked is not usually cost-effective. Ever seen what a thermite grenade does to FA?
Judging from the video, I probably do need to list a FA battalion with the 9th Division. Now we have to find the other 83+ FA battalions worth of equippment required for the IA…
Taji does have the facilities to salvage armor and artillery, if it is in condition to be salvaged.
Note: The video appears to be the IMoD version of the news reporting on “The Pentagon Channel”. I suppose I also need to upgrade the rating of the IMoD PAO component…
As to French sales, I fully expect the IMoD to buy aircraft from them.
Also possible is PTG/PGGs for the Navy.
What I doubt is French armor. French armor does not have that good of a reputation.
I know you’re not going to post the updated OOB until Monday DJ and you’re free to answer this question on that comment thread when it comes but what do you think on the naval helo situation? Specifically whether or not a genuine naval ASW/Anti ship helicopter such as the EC AS565 Panther or some similar type is what they are looking for versus a navalized utility helicopter with SAR and patrol duties? I mean, from what I have observed the latter seems to be more relevant to the needs of the IqN and Marines, though understandably I can see the need for both types. However given the fact that the IqAF is getting plenty of Vipers (and dare I say, Rafales someday?) Could the Air Force simply re-take over the role of shoreline defense or could this represent the future of the Navy’s total offensive capability, especially sine the Navy hasn’t made any attempt to acquire any more powerful warships than those lightly armed Saettia Class boats and whatever else they eventually procure? ::GASP::
Trophy Wench:
Take a deep breath. Hold-it. Hold-it. Hold-it. Now slowly exhale… lol
1. The Iraqi Navy is about fifth in priority in the ISF. After IZAF, IA, INP, and even DBE… I do not expect them to gain major elements or to have an independent air corps.
2. My bet is that 2nd Squadron (Hueys) of the IZAF will gain additional aviation elements and become an IZAF composit naval aviation support squadron. We are probably talking during phase 2 (2011-2015) or into phase 3 (2016-2020). Note: Hueys can fire missiles, just ask the Iranian Navy or the USMC about how usefull Hueys are…
3. I expect the Iraqi Navy to buy PTG/PGG classes of boats in phase 3. Nothing bigger is required for a country with only 68km of coastline.
As to what French aircraft the IZAF will get, only time will tell. First they have to get past the budget crunch. So far, I have tenatively identified 25 of the planned 38 squadrons by type based on reported orders planned or signed.
(See IZAF page and add 3 F16 equipped fighter sqs, the OOB itself is updated, only the article summarizing the monthly changes has not been published. Bill says Monday AM.)
https://www.longwarjournal.org/oob/index.php
(For those curious about what I consider significant about the 9010, check the bottom of the notes page….)
Trophy Wench and sheytanelkebir, I would love to touch base with both of you via e-mail regarding the ISF. That is if you are interested.
Posted by jack winters at April 5, 2009 10:35 AM ET:
I always looked For that but stopped Before 2 Years ,, When is It Showed I cant Remember
And the Hurra Brought to us that the Serbian Deal is running we got from them Weopons Including Mortor 120 MM and They Did an Division Operations ( Isnt that like what Just Nato Armies Do ??? ))
If Jack Saw that did you saw the Picture with Direct Shot ?? they are Just Children …. But it looked Good at least Better than the Old one who Barley Had Personal Armor And Battalion Operation Level !!!!
DJ why Dont you Work to Have Contacts in the Iraqi Army … I mean what would you lose you will have some exclusive News … i mean Governmental Newspaper Named Alsabah Always Quote You … Every Time their is an Army News your Name Is there
Note to all: It is not smart to publically display your e-mail. Not unless you like being burried in spam…
Almaleki:
“DJ why Dont you Work to Have Contacts in the Iraqi Army … I mean what would you lose you will have some exclusive News … ”
Only four times in three years has an Iraqi spokesperson answered my inquiries. Two of those were in blogger-roundtables. The rest of the time I get ignored. I suspect I am on a reporter blacklist in MoD/MoI. Possibly they think I am a spy or something. Even MNSTC-I only answers me 20 percent of the time.
“i mean Governmental Newspaper Named Alsabah Always Quote You … Every Time their is an Army News your Name Is there”
I have quoted them too. And other Iraqi news. Most of the current IP unit locations come from them. And have corrected their english translations when they get terms confused (E.G. Division in place of Brigade.) Just as I also have associations with several other news and blogs. Some (like DID) public, some private…
Monthly update is up…
https://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2009/04/iraqi_security_force_27.php
You SPY !!!!!!!!!!!!
Thats is Outstanding And for Whom Are you weeeeeeeee
Almaleki:
It does not help that I am a retired USN Intelligence Speciallist (22 years active service)…
https://www.longwarjournal.org/staff.php
Then they Think you spy For US ,, Well Who dont ??