Yesterday’s attack that killed three US soldiers who were traveling in a convoy in northwestern Pakistan was carried out by a suicide bomber, and was not caused by a remotely detonated roadside bomb as first reported. The suicide attack suggests that the Taliban, who took credit for the attack, had inside information on the presence of US troops in the convoy.
The three US soldiers, who have been described variously as Special Operations Forces and civil affairs troops training Pakistan’s paramilitary Frontier Corps, were killed when a suicide bomber driving a car rammed into their convoy as it traveled to the opening of a girls’ school in the district of Lower Dir.
The three soldiers were among nine people killed in the attack; three Pakistani girls, a Pakistani Frontier Corps soldier, and two civilians were also reported killed, and more than 130 Pakistanis, most of them girls at a high school near the attack, and two more US soldiers, were wounded.
The attack indicates that the Taliban received intelligence on the convoy’s movements and knew exactly which car to hit. The suicide bomber stalked the convoy and appeared to know which car was carrying the American soldiers.
“As soon as the convoy appeared it rushed to that place and exploded,” a resident of the village of Shahi Koto who witnessed the attack told The Associated Press.
The US soldiers were traveling in an armored vehicle that “was equipped with electronic jammers sufficient to block remotely controlled devices and mines,” and was in the middle of a convoy of vehicles from the Frontier Corps, The New York Times reported.
US military and intelligence officials contacted by The Long War Journal suspect that the Taliban were given specific intelligence to carry out the attack, but these sources do not yet have concrete evidence to back up the claim. Nor would they speculate on who may have provided the intelligence to the Taliban.
“This attack was too perfect, they laid in wait for the convoy to pass and knew exactly which vehicle to hit,” a US military officer familiar with the details of the attack observed.
“Suicide attacks in Dir are not that common,” a US intelligence official familiar with the Taliban insurgency in Pakistan’s Northwest Frontier Province said. “I don’t believe they got that lucky and by chance struck gold with their first suicide attack [in Dir] in almost two months.”
“The very rare suicide attacks in Dir have followed a pattern,” the intelligence official continued. “In the past, they [The Taliban] have used suicide attacks to intimidate the tribes who sought to eject the Taliban.”
The last suicide attack in Dir took place on Dec. 18, when the Taliban blew up a mosque frequented by police and security officials.
Dir is a district in the Northwest Frontier Province that borders the Taliban-controlled tribal agency of Bajaur, under the command of Faqir Mohammed. Dir also borders the district of Swat, where the military has been waging a counterinsurgency against the Taliban under the command of Mullah Nazir. The Taliban use Dir as a transit point to cross into Afghanistan and wage attacks against Coalition Forces in the northeast.
Sufi Mohammed, the leader of the banned pro-Taliban Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Shariat-e-Mohammed [TNSM, or the Movement for the Enforcement of Mohammed’s Law], is from Lower Dir. Sufi, who is in Pakistani custody, engineered the Taliban official takeover of Swat and neighboring districts in February 2009. During the preceding two years, the Taliban unofficially controlled Swat and neighboring Shangla. The overt Taliban takeover of Swat invited international condemnation and forced the Pakistani Army to move into the district in force in April 2009.
64 Comments
When will we learn Pakistan is not our friend??? These people hate us, over 80% of their population dont support the war on al qaeda.
R.I.P. to our fallen brothers.
I have come to the conclusion that it is Pakistan and not the US that is the top nation in the world. It is the only state that can get both US and China to be at its beck and call, despite their self-disparaging propaganda that would say the opposite. They get all the goodies and do next to none of the work. And we can’t do a thing about it because we’re stretched far too thin to even think about smacking them one, and the Indians are too protective of their economic gains to do it for us too.
In essence, everything hinges on when Pakistan will disintigrate, which can’t be too much longer from now…
The ISI will continue to retaliate against US forces as long as the CIA rains hell on their brothers. Time to take a play from Mossad and start assassinating these ISI goons.
All the more reason to step up the drone attacks so the taleban see them coming in their sleep. And it is time to start sending them into Quetta to get Omar…what the hell are we waiting for? A green light from Pakistan? Cmon we know where he is send a hit squad….the gloves were off long ago.
Either we win this war outright or we pull another Vietnam attrition thing again.
I think people are getting carried away here. There are several reasons why Pakistan is not going anywhere soon:
1. The remaining karma of the British Raj. Its weakened over time, but that was one bitch of a system. If everyone involved wanted to destroy it, it would still take decades..that smoking hulk still has life in it…more than you would think.
2. Economy…its a basket case in many ways, but its HUGE compared to the typical African basket case. There are millions of educated people and thousands of businesses and connections. And there is more underwater than above it. Hard to kill or to easily tear apart.
3. Most of the population and economic activity is in Punjab and Karachi and in those areas there is significant identification with being Pakistani.
4. and the number one reason: Everyone around it can never agree on what to do with the parts if it breaks. The chaos, the millions of headless jihadis, the potential of neighbours fighting over the pieces, all these lead to the strange fact that India, China, America, Iran, even Afghanistan have officials who to go to bed every night worrying about how to keep it intact…while keeping its worst instincts in check…
5. In the long run, these borders are pretty artificial and are bound to soften. The name may or may not remain, but the reality will be one large mass of people in the Indian subcontinent from Kabul to Kolkata and beyond, all interacting more in peace than in war. Thats the way its headed, but a lot of jihadis and hindu extremists and other nutcases will blow each other up before that becomes a reality.
Omar,
you claim that so many Pakistanis are educated yet some 80% supposedly hate the US. They and most other muslims who hate the US cannot be that educated because only an idiot would not be able to see how much good the US has contributed to the world and to their countries! And …hello…..the radicals attacked the US first…..9/11?
Like the Japanese who stireed up the hornets nest OBL & the taleban will face the same fate.
Civil Affairs formations belong to Special Operations Command, which probably accounts for the discrepancy in reporting.
Sorry folks but just like the US and France had Nazi collaborator Pakistan has al Qaida Taliban collaborators. It will take years of US and Uk support and backing to expel these people from military/intel ranks. Suggesting further isolation of Pakistani military will only strengthen te hand of militancy.
Pakistaniat,
Sorry it is not that simple. Pakistan is by definition an Islamic state, and all the arms of the Pakistani state are by definition ‘Islamic’ hence there is no such thing as ‘collaborator’.
I have said in the past and I will say again. The only way to contain Pakistan is to totally ‘seal’ it from the outside world with nothing going in or out. If we don’t do this then expect a mushroom cloud over a western city sooner rather than later.
Spooky,
I agree with you. Our policy makers are simply playing a game of kicking the can down the road, but I don’t think this game can go on for much longer.
In my view I think the west will have to go cap in hand to the Indians and promise them a big ‘reward’ and ask them to solve this problem for us. We in the west simply don’t have the level of manpower required to sort this problem out.
With friends like these, who needs enemies?
Omar,
I find your vision of the borders “softening” from eastern India to western Afghanistan to be an utterly fantastic notion.
In India, Pakistan is considered an extremely troubled distant relative. Especially since the Mumbai attacks, most indians – of all folds – look at Pakistan with utter contempt and wouldn’t be heartbroken if that land broke off and floated away someplace else.
Indian muslims probably thank their stars that their forefathers did not take that train to the land of the pure. They probably are a lot safer amongst the hindus than they would have been in Karachi.
Economically, the chasm between India and its eastern neighbors is widening and will continue to grow. As a regular visitor, even I am surprised at how rapidly India is becoming a liberal society in the mode of other developed asian countries. In this respect alone, its so called “cousins” to the east are the proverbial country bumpkins.
Most pakistanis are led to believe that their “religious nuts” have counterparts in other societies and are therefore acceptable. It is true that all societies have their fringe but liberal societies learn to keep them in check and instead take the ideological middle road. In Pakistan, that fringe religious ideology has seeped deep into all levels of all functioning institutions – be it their military or their political parties. Take away the current US presence with their drones and dollars, and Pakistan will go back to being exactly the old jihadist factory that it was before. In other words, you will find that the pakistani society or leadership would have learnt nothing from their recent past.
So I don’t know what is going to happen with Pakistan, Omar, but I do strongly believe that softening of the borders is not a realistic prospect. On the contrary, in this case, the old adage that “better fences make better neighbors” couldn’t be more appropriate.
paul, Pakistan is still mostly illiterate, but given a total population of 180 million, has millions of people with some education. Educated does not equate with pro-american or anti-american. It primarily means that millions of people are able to participate in relatively modern economic activity and are available for mobilization by organized propaganda. Whether 80% hate or love the US is mostly going to depend on what their EDUCATORS and leaders of public opinion are telling them (this is true in all countries). For decades the army has controlled national security propaganda in Pakistan and they have directed it towards jihad (mostly anti-indian, not focused on the West). Being morons, they paid little attention to the fact that the weapon they were preparing to use against India was also likely to be used against “secular” aspects of Pakistan (secular here means all aspects of Pakistan that are not in line with the 18th century vision of abdul wahab and company) and was such an all purpose hate machine, it would bring the whole world to Pakistan to knock it out. Well, the chickens have come home to roost.
But my point was that all this is bad news, it still does not mean that you take the emotional road and decide that Pakistan is now about to dissolve. The actual mechanics of the state have more to do with British era administration and actual economic integration of the population and these factors will keep it alive, but with some difficulty….we are seeing the “difficult” part in operation right now.
I agree with Spooky’s conclusion.
I also agree with this young Pakistani girl’s conclusion. See her at
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8499578.stm?ls
Paul-
Your argument is a logical fallacy, on all points. To assume only the uneducated dislike the U.S. because with education comes love and acceptance of American foreign policy is almost laughable. Osama bin Laden himself is very well educated, not just in religious teachings either. Comes with being from a rich business family. And thats true of several of the other AQ leaders as well.
The use of religious dogma is only a convenient justification that hides more mundane, but very logical, reasons why they would oppose the United States. They feel (rightly or wrongly) that they are having Israel slammed down their throats, and that it is not justified to remove one people just so another people can have a homeland they had not been to for centuries (not saying this is how I think about it, but this is DEFINATELY how they think about it). And because it was done on religious grounds, they became radicalized religiously as a reaction to the whole debacle in the Levant.
With regards to Pakistan, rather than having to do with Israel, this has to do with their VERY rampant (to the point of jingoism) nationalist attitude, which is one of the few things (other than the Army) keeping Pakistan from suffering Nepal’s inevitable fate of total collapse. To see a foreign nation, especially a foreign nation that is perceived everywhere outside the United States and Europe as an empire (and further one that is cooperating with its arch enemy, India), is an insult to their national pride and legally speaking, they are fully within their rights to balk at any breaches in their sovereignity. So yeah, 80% of Pakistan may very well hate the U.S.
And 9/11 was a direct result of our involvement in Afghanistan in the 1980s. A little research goes a long way dude.
This appears to be a step forward for the moles in the ISI. I have long suspected that the reason we have not been able to kill the top AQAM leaders is that we have to ask the ISI for permission to use the drones and they in turn pass that info on to AQAM. That is why the leaders always ssem to leave the site 30-45 minutes before the strike.
Now it looks like they are also giving out information on American troop movements so suicide bombers can attack them.
Perhaps they are emboldened or maybe they are feeling the heat and making a desparation move. Either one exposes them a little more. However, I think there are so many moles that finding one or two will not solve the problem, especially if the mole is Gen. Kiyani himself.
gfgwgc,
I am not surprised at your response. This is the internet, we all argue with imaginary opponents about whom we know next to nothing. Anyway, what I am saying has nothing to do with touchy feely love and harmony breaking out all of a sudden. Its simple economics. And its already happening. Borders will soften means that people and goods will travel across all of them much more than they do now. I am also talking long term, not next year. There may be serious wars and terrorism for years before that “softening” fully takes hold.
I also did not say that all societies have their nuts in equal proportion and equally powerful roles. But India and Pakistan are less different than you seem to think (NOT talking about their constitutions or laws or security paradigms, but about the daily life of millions of people). Hoodlums and terrorists come in many shapes and sizes in both countries. The Indian state IN PRINCIPLE is on the right track while the Pakistani state (or more specifically, its moronic military leadership) has been heading in the wrong direction for years. But the hard facts of where their bread is coming from will force them to change course (already forcing them to do so). THEY may not know it yet, but the whole jihadi paradigm is due for retirement and one way or the other (one way being less painful than the other) it will happen. Watch and wait.
Would it be fair to guess that 80% of Americans ‘hate’ Pakistan? (OK at least from what i observe here a good 80% of assumed Americans are not exactly in love with Pakistan.)
So, the feeling is mutual and there is no love lost between your two countries.
Now wiki would have me believe that Mullen and Kayani are great pals. Admirable but the naivety does not begin and end here.
Paul says, well meaningly, that America should be loved for all its good contributions to the world. But he forgets that Pakistanis simply do not have the same values as Americans, anymore than America is sold on Pakistani values.
Only 2 things have bound the US and Pakistan together:
1. The Great US Dollar, and
2. US support to Pakistan against India and their common erstwhile foe, USSR. The former historically, and the latter, historic.
With the commonality of enemies gone, that just leaves the US Dollar and that my American friends is a one-way street, one-way avenue, one-way highway to…….? Ask yourself the question please, Sirs.
Don’t just ignore it like your Administration is doing. Don’t just go off to Hawaii in your first Xmas vacation in your new and all-powerful job and play golf and lie on the beach. THAT is not what made you a great country. Don’t just sit there and spout smart power when, please admit it, sorry to say this, YOU DO NOT HAVE A STRATEGY.
Now, if Mullen can buy off his ‘friend’ Kayani upon his retirement and have him show you the way into Balochistan, into the ISI, into Quetta and onward to Qandahar, I’ll chew not just my words but the whole of the Manhattan phone directory including the yellow pages.
AND if you can combine that with getting the Indians to support you from the other side, then maybe you are getting into some kind of actual control.
BUT if landing into Gwadar is a stretch too far, go into Waziristan–what are you waiting for? An invitation?
SO if all of this is all too much, get out of the war and play a smart political strategy. The point is to out-smart Islamabad, Rawalpindi, Quetta, one way or another, and not be out-smarted as is happening now. But then the impression from Washington is that all is well, we are in control and we can now plan not only our easter vacation, summer vacation, next xmas vacation but also our vacation from the Afghanistan summer 2011.
Join the dots or simply dotty?
Spooky-I am more than capable of doing my own research, probably more than you. 9/11 was aresult of us helping the muhadjeen out? Well there’s gratitude for ya!
If we never helped them out there would have beem no taleban…think before you write dude.
Quite to the contrary, it’s the educated Pakistanis who are the enablers of jihad.
Omar,
I am not at all sure that the jihadis will give up their perverse ideology for economic reasons. These are people who are all too ready to blow themselves up for their beliefs and probably don’t care about next quarter’s GDP.
Just take what happened in Karachi today. Not only did they go after those innocent shiite pilgrims on the bus but they planted another bomb next to the emergency room of the hospital just to make sure that no one survived.
You and I cannot even begin to fathom the sheer depravity of these guys’ beliefs let alone assume that they can somehow, someday be reformed. Sorry, Omar, I am very pessimistic about the future of Pakistan.
i agree with Nate, the PAK populace HATES us, thier Gov., and ISI have been playing this game for a while. I wish we could let INDIA smash them, but being involved with people that hate us is necessary. The dye had been cast, they were set up, and I would rethink security procedures concerning US personnel. I hope they pick up some signals intel, that was a call that went out over the airwaves..hope we find these s.o.b.’s
GFG,
My point is that the jihadis are still a very small minority in Pakistan. When someone blew himself up in Karachi today, do you think most people in Karachi supported his action? They have become this big a menace because the army helped them and trained them for 20 years. They cannot now be killed off in 2 years. Until a few months ago, the army was not even trying to stop them. But I think the high command has finally STARTED to figure out which way is up. They are still paranoid about India and at times I suspect the US is not averse to that, but in the end they are going to turn on the jihadis because the jihadis have already turned on them…and the people of Pakistan may be totally confused (thanks to 60 years of brainwashing) but those same confused people are very clear about wanting to live, wanting to get more goods and services, wanting to see their children live…and all of that will mean turning against the jihadis. It wont happen in one go and it wont be a pleasant process (and a lot juvenile anti-Indian and anti-western rhetoric will be uttered before its over), but its coming…as I said, watch and wait.
Omar is right Jihadi’s are a very small minority and majority of Pakistan is against them.
Now Hating US?
I think that majority don’t care at all, the problems of majority are different. They at first want to save themselves from the bombs, than earn something to live again save themselves, and further do not talk about a controversial issue so that, someone powerful may not hurt them, again to save themselves.
Most of Pakistanis don’t have any political affiliations, there is lack of proper leadership to lead them to what is good for them..
According to Farhat Taj, people of Wazirstan in general & majority of Pashtun in particular are supporting US drones attacks to eliminate enemies of civilization. Though ISI controled Paki Militants-military allaince press is trying to project & dissiminate anti Amercanisim. Ultimately they will fail.
http://dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2010\02\06\story_6-2-2010_pg3_4
The US trainers were set up. Not surprising. Pashtuns have done it before (1878). And Pak soldiers have killed Americans before.
Now Pakistan must finally look at itself and try to understand what it has become..the most distrusted, hated nation on the face of the earth. Who will come to its aid now, after years of paranoid driven state terrorism?
Oh, hate USA? Its been there since Zulfiqar Bhutto and his North Korean loving, National Socialism. So what? Is it real or is it just illusion? In Pakistan now, the two are joined.
So look at the origin of the problem.
— Start with Kashmir.
— Continue with incompetent Pak dictators who had to justify themselves by Kashmir.
— Continue with the need for a dominant Military to retake Kashmir.
— Continue with fear of India (3 wars)..
— fear of Afghanistan (Pakhtunistan..Ahmad Shah Duranni and the Durand line..need we go further)..
— continue with the destruction of the Pak educational system to put more money into the military budget.
— continue with a feckless leadership and a feudal society
— continue with a rabble rousing Urdu Press and with a disfunctional view of the world warped by former British Indian colonial policy.
And you arrive at an impass. No one in the world…not the Arabs, Europe, America, even China (Islamic revolutionaries from Sinjang are base in Pakistan) trust this country. They have descended into the depths of self-delusion and paranoia and the results will be what should have been in 1998 under Nawaz Sharif..the branding of Pakistan and ISI and the Military and its cock-a-manie theory of maneuver room/libenstrassem/defense-in-depth/whatever theory, which undermines the security of all of South Asia, as what it really is..State Supported terrorism with basically attacks the whole world.
If Pakistanis don’t want to be able to play cricket and fly kites and have Sufi’s sing their mantras, fine… it is coming with the Taliban and Shari’a (whomever can interpret that doctrine)… Maybe it is time for the Feckless ones to take a stand. Maybe the MQM is right!!
Waheed states: “Most of Pakistanis don’t have any political affiliations, there is lack of proper leadership to lead them to what is good for them..”
That’s besides the point.
What is relevant is that most Pakistanis apparently have a strong religious affiliation.
That makes them good enough to hate America and to identify with extremism.
Take this: 61% of the contents of the Koran either speak ill of unbelievers or call for their violent subjugation; while at best, only 1.2% of the Koran has any goodwill toward humanity.
Bin Laden has been right after all.
“Omar is right Jihadi’s are a very small minority and majority of Pakistan is against them.”
Our SF are being attacked because of the positive impact they are having in directing aid the Government of Pakistan is incapable of giving to the people of Dir. This directly threatens the Taliban who can’t compete with the positive affects we are having through our Frontier Corps hosts. It would be a mistake to stop this relationship as they are beginning to bear fruit. I don’t doubt the possibility of this attack being facilitated by someone in the Frontier Corps or the ISI, but don’t forget there were FC wounded in the attack as well as civilians. This shared sacrifice will help cement our relationship with the FC and show the Taliban to be the killers that they are.
Attacking the quran and islam as the basis for radicalism is a flawed approach that no military leader in America or even India would accept. The 60% number you speak of – assuming it’s accurate – has no significance. The old testament in te bible is replete with stories of warrior kings and subjugated ‘nonbelievers.’. The Hindu Vedas have god-warriors who battled bloody wars with each other for supremacy. In fact many Hindu fanatics cite these stories when they conduct pogroms of minorities in India. The point is that radicals exploit anything they can to achieve their political ends. By putting the target on Islam you will make more enemies out of the people we must have as allies to win the Long war.
Omar,
You argue that Pakistan has a large enough educated class to keep the economy afloat.
You also argue that the jihadi populace is small enough that it won’t sink Pakistan and that it can be handled.
Most neutral observers believe that it is close thing. Going purely by history, there are going to be further coups, unwinnable wars, severe territory loss and general flailing about.
Paul-
Gratitude? We destroyed an otherwise stable state just because it was communist. Had we stayed around to build it back up, we’d be dealing with another Turkmenistan, not another Somalia.
Janus-
Amen.
As for the rest of you arguing whether or not the Taliban has significant support or not, or whether or not the reason somehow has to do with them being devout Muslims (a notion I vehemenantly disagree with BTW), here is how it goes:
The majority of Pakistanis are too busy trying to stay alive to care about politics (think about the pyramid of needs, because it applies here very strongly). Even when they spare the thought, it only goes as far as things that affect their daily lives, strictly within the realm of the Domestic agenda (or there lack of).
Those a bit better off from the atrociously poor, but still not anywhere near middle class, might care about the issue of Afghan refugees and the terrorist attacks against them.
The middle class worries about India, its economy and how it makes theirs pale in comparison. They care about Kashmir the way the West cares about Israel. They blame the war in the north on the Afghans not knowing how to govern, and the Americans for being meddlesome. Tend not to like Taliban for being bad for business.
All people above this class, THEY are the ones that actually have the luxury to “support” movements of anykind, Taliban included. They are the ones with influence or whatever levers of power there are.
So all in all, like in most countries, the citizens are apathetic. Those Pakistanis who DO have political concerns beyond their borders are worried about India and Kashmir, the Durrand Line, and blame the Americans for it all, some of it fabricated scapegoatism (blaming them for the loss of their wars in 65 and 71), and some of it genuinely our fault (Afghan aftermath 1980s, support for ALL of Pakistan’s military dictators).
But to say the rampant Anti-Americanism equals support for the Pakistani Taliban is to commit a well known fallacy in logic by assuming correlation is causation. It isn’t. The Taliban (in Pakistan) are a modern day, culture specific version of the Bolsheviks who are preying on the local government’s ineptitude to achieve their aims. The anti-Americanism is for the intellectuals and upper class among their supporters.
trickey,
I agree that its a close run thing. It could go either way. I think there is enough potential there to create a “normal” country, but things could fall apart too. Two points:
1. It is NOT in the interests of the rest of the region to see things fall apart. It will become Somalia X 1000. India, which is on the verge of real progress will get sucked down into the muck. Everyone in a radius of 1000 miles will have to face gangs of kidnappers and pirates. It wont be pretty. It may be emotionally satisfying to say lets send them all to hell, but the downside exceeds the emotional gratification.
2. just because so many Muslims present everything in religious terms does not mean everyone has to do it. focus on results.
but I agree, its a close run thing….
Pakistaniat:
Very few Christians or even fewer Hindus take their scriptures as seriously or as literally as most Muslims apparently do.
Secondly, the Church builds educational institutions and hospitals to serve the needy and poor, and hence reflects the aspirations of early Christianity and its leadership.
Modern India is secular state, where minorities, arguably, have even more rights than majority. It again reflects on the majority religion in India. The most regressive and violent component of India comes from its Muslim section – to put it in context.
In India or in America, Hindu or Christian radicals can’t achieve their political ends. Because, the nature of these religions are such that radicalism is not part of mainstream. But, in Muslim nations such as Pakistan, radicalism is mainstream.
Islamic states, almost invariable treat non-Muslims as second class citizens. Many, like Pakistan, have worked to exterminate them as a matter of policy (in both East and West Pakistan). Bin Laden and many jihadists, who are pious and religious, can be seen to reflect the aspirations of early Islam and its leadership. For instance, 75% Muhammad’s biography (Sira) consists of violent jihad waged on unbelievers.
Most followers of Muhammad, going by this statistics, are going to identify with jihadism than with capitalism or socialism. There is no running away from this.
We can win this war only by identifying the problem correctly – by noting that Muslims too, are victims of certain attributes of Islam.
We didn’t win the Cold War by declaring that Communism is a progressive ideology.
The are are news from inner circles of Pakistani military establishment that some army generals are not happy with US SF training Pashtun Frontier Constablary. They consider it threat to Pakistan in the long run. These selfish Pakistani generals do not think for a second that FC is taking 99% of casualty fighting against Talian & AQ. These Generals mostly from Jehlum, Rawalpindi, Chakwal & Gujrat have openly opposed US SP providing training to Pahtun FC in the past for racial reasons.
Pakistaniat,
People are singling out Islam because violence is being committed on theological basis of Islam. Currently that is not happening with Xianity or Judaism.
I am no expert on Hindusim but if I remember right the word “nonbeliever” is not defined.
I am a nonreligious person and I won’t be killed even if go public about this in US. That does not seem to be the case with Islam, not now.
@M. Muthuswamy:
You Said:
“What is relevant is that most Pakistanis apparently have a strong religious affiliation.
That makes them good enough to hate America and to identify with extremism.”
My Response:
Most Pakistanis are believers of Islam that’s true, but they are ritualistic believers. They perform rituals and that’s it, I can bet that around 80% don’t bother to know that what is written in Quran, it is sacred scripture in a sacred language.
The problem is that the radicalists are much more vocal, and the outsiders like you who don’t have an inside view of things, mistake those radicalitsts as the true representatives of the masses.
What you are trying to label of Muslims here is only true of the Arab Muslims or a small minority who follows there version of Islam, Further Bin Laden was an Arab, and he is more culturally motivated than religious, And problem of Palestine is an Arab problem not Muslim problem, don’t over-generalize with religion.
No country is perfect. The problem with Pakistan is that it needs to figure out what it is. Is it a country of Muslims? Or is it a Muslim country? Many Muslim countries had problems with the fringe. Indonesia, Bangladesh etc. But Pakistan has built itself up over the years as more of a Muslim Country than a country of Muslims. Therefore somehow Israel is relevant, American wars in Iraq are relevant, attacks by Hindu radicals on Muslim’s in any part of India are relevant. That mentality has to change and it actually looks like it is getting worse and not better. Anytime a Pakistani feels like protesting over the killing of other Muslims, they should first ask themselves, “How does this relate to my condition in my country?” If it does not in any way relate to your country then stop and let other people deal with their own problems while you tackle your own.
Waheed:
You don’t have to state that most Pakistanis have not read Islamic scriptures in Arabic. That’s a given.
But what is in Islamic scriptures is brought down to the masses by the clerics. Believe me, Islamic institutions in Pakistan or elsewhere are not teaching the virtues of democracy, capitalism or the importance of modern education to the clerical student class.
They teach Islamic history, including the glory of jihad.
Let me put it bluntly: Islamic institutions are the ones that are destroying Pakistan – by stifling the masses with outdated material from a 1500+ year-old literature.
The problem is that the civic society in Pakistan has not been able to mount any sort of intellectual campaign to discredit the “vocal”
There is another dichotomy in comparing Xianty and Islam.
If you goto Norway the Xians there have Norwegian names. Go to Africa and Xians have local names. Xianity does respect the local cultures and customs.
That is not the case with Islam. In the best case the last name may survive but everything else is from Arabia. Local cultures are put to extinction (Persian, Iraqi are examples). A muslim has atleast one component of Arab name.
Unfortunately Muslims fail to see the big picture of Arab imperialism, which is worse than Western imperialism. The west at least did not actively extinguish cultures.
Xians are not as dogmatic. All they care about is belief in Jesus. Doesn’t matter where you are.
Muslims general loyalties always have to lie (literally) towards Mecca. Apparently a malaysian astronaut was given directions as to which way he should kneel to face Mecca. Haj requirement is another example.
Muslims claim to be free from superstitions/dogma but it seems the claim is nonsense. And there are so many examples in the way ablutions are carried out, the way greetings are exchanged. Its a lot of Arab cultural domination.
Xianity on the other hand does not care about cultural domination. Just Jesus will do (Catholics do have some rituals but barely noticeable, no requirement, in practice, to visit Vatican once in a life time).
Now, I am not religious.
I hope youn will all forgive me when I say that my eyes sort of glaze over when these “comments” turn into a crcular debate or discussion about religion instead of tactics, strategy and other intersting inside operational details etc. As far as I can see the radical islamists i.e. “salafists”,Al Queda, Taliban etc. can’t even live with other Moslims such as Shiites so who in theirr ight mind would ever think they can coexist with other religions. Anyway, I digress as well. What I want to know is how we are getting detailed targeting information inside the tribal areas of Pakistan and what kind of societal infrastrucure typically exists in the tribal areas. Do they have electricity? Do they have telephone, cell phone or internet service? Do they have mail service? Do they have television reception? Do they have passable roads and vehicles? How do they get gasoline for vehicles? Are there stores or markets? How do they get food? Do they grow their own food? Any detailed background information on everyday life in the tribal regions would be interesting to someone like me who has never been there since there is literally no place to find this information.
I think these Arab countries should also be taken care of ….. the talibans get their material and financial support from them – as we are going to cut Pakistan to our desire we must take care of Saudi Arabia, UAE, Jordan, Syria – they all must be dealt with strong hands
In regards to the educated and their rejection of radicalism in Pakistan, I have serious doubts about that.
When I see the audience attending a Zaid Hamid Lecture, they appear to be the young educated Middle and Upper Class types rather than indentured agricultural workers.
Pakistanis are against these jihadis and see them as evil. So as far as AQ and Talibans are concerned their views are exactly the same as those of americans or the West. There is no debate on this issue. Yes that’s true that ISI or the military is not in line with those views. But still that is not rampant. Change has already started and Omar is right it will take time.
As far as americans are concerned, i agree that Pakistanis are indifferent. Certainly they do not see them as enemies but they do not see them as friends either. But based on the social contacts i have, I would like to convey it to others that at this war on terror they view the american help as a great support. That’s the only reason there is no public outrage except from those statements that are generating from view circles that have well established links with these evils that pakistani public is against these drone attacks. So keep the good work.
The only reason the people of Pakistan are with military is INDIA. What ALqaeda is to America, India is to Pakistan. If this is not acceptable for west and this when they try to change, things get messy. Why India can not be Pakistan’s friend and why Pakistan cannot get along with INDIA? I think to answer this is straightforward, simply ask why americans cannot be friend with alqaeda? What ever reasons you give same you can apply on Pakistanis. Just a simple news clipping in pakistan’s newspaper that ” ???? american delegation will visit pakistan to discuss the war on terror, and they will be coming to Pakistan after visiting INDIA” This simple heading of “after visiting india” is sufficient to ensure the pakistani public opinion.
All i want to say is that Pakistanis donot hate America. They hate these Jihadis and AQ as much as any civilized society do, but when you bring india in this equation, creating public opinion against military or ISI is next to impossible to infuse.
Because of the behavior of few evil groups west can not generalize it on whole.
All this talk is exactly why the middle east is keen to fight us. Y’all think about that now. Dealing in absolutes by either wishing for total Dominion over an entire region or wanting to give them total freedom to do whatever they want helps no one.
A nuanced idea that can actually be implemented without making the situation worse would be nice. Better for us to focus on that.
Mirza –
I found your comment that the pakistani people equate India to Al Qaeda to be both interesting and disturbing. If you are right than I must say that your institutions have done a very thorough job in brainwashing its people of the grave threats they face from the hindus next door. I have read reports about how your text books lend their own angle to history, charitably speaking. It gets the populace good and ready for the rest of their existence. Your politicans need a scapegoat for their corruption and utter ineptitude and that ¨foreign hand¨¨ will always come in handy, will it not? Your military needs an enemy to justify the huge role that it plays in your society, so the behemoth next door is godsend, no? Never mind that the list of terrorists and terrorists attack that originate from your own soil and emanate all over the world is seemingly unending, it is all somehow the fault of that terrible, terrible evil India next door. The future must therefore depend on how many ¨Omars¨ and how many ¨¨Mirzas¨¨ there exist in Pakistan: in other words, it depends on how many of you see the evil within and are hopeful of changiing the course that their country is on versus how many have learnt to love that cool aid.
gfgwgc
Perhaps you are thinking of this:
The Subtle Subversion” The State of Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan
Here is something more recent that touches on the problems in Pakistan.
Senators want Arabic as a compulsory subject
During debate on a motion to discuss the government’s education policy, the Senate Chairman Farooq H Naek also proposed the parliamentarians to move bills in the House to make Arabic language as a compulsory subject and bring the syllabus in accordance with teachings of Islam, Holy Quran and Sunnah of Holy Prophet (Peace Be Upon Him).
Knowing Arabic will make it easier on those who are planning to leave Pakistan for Dubai.
gfgwgc,
You are right that people of Pakistan are brainwashed, but all ingredients to be brainwashed are perfect, massacres in 1947, Kashmir, separation of Bangladesh and then forcing the Pakistan to forfeit of raising the kashmir issue in UN. What else one needs? You are right that military used this to establish its control over society successfully.
This American emphasis of greater role of India in Afghanistan is sole reason the military uses to keep the support of people of Pakistan. But this does not mean that Pakistanis are against Americans. How many mass demonstrations against drone attacks the western media has captured? None? Except for few groups who could not win a single seat in national assembly and this is true even in NWFP where these moulvis party lost in entirety.
Bard207,
Reference to your point about teaching of arabic in Pakistan, i would like to update you on this news which you (west) are seeing negatively.
Arabic is a language of HOLY QURAN. Which every muslim recite daily, religion preaches this recitation too. Also compulsory five daily prayers are in Arabic.
Arabic was excluded from Pakistan’s school curriculum, which educated Pakistanis (me included) see as an attempt of moulvi to take control of interpretation of HOLY QURAN. Without Arabic what happened is that “everyone” is going to moulvi, because he is ignorant and moulvi knows Arabic, so moulvi is transferring the sickness and corruption of his mind onto the seeker. And that’s the root cause of religious evil in Pakistan’s society. A seeker is a true human being before going to a moulvi, but when he starts going to moulvi (for learning to recite Quran ) he starts distancing himself from other fellows of society and is brainwashed that they be killed for that. (for example, in Quran its written that GOD asked holy prophet MOSES pbuh and his followers to fight the infidels of a city, The moulvi interprets this see GOD is asking for jihad against infidels as they are infidels so jihad is mandatory. What’s nonsense???????)
So islam is not teaching him to be evil its the moulvi that is teaching him. And unfortunately he cannot mend himself as he still is ignorant of Arabic, he can read arabic but not translate it.
So the best way is to educate a person. This will exclude moulvi from this equation.
Thanks
Mirza
I found this definition for Moulvi and that
is what I will use.
An expert in Islamic law
Under your scenario….
A Pakistani school student is perhaps 12 years old and is learning Arabic and will he be permitted to question what the Moulvi is saying in the Masjid (Mosque).
I have doubts that will be popular with the adult members – participants for a youth to rebel against the existing structure – sentiment – teachings within that Masjid. There will be huge pressure to conform (submit) into the existing teachings found there.
The alternative would be for new Masjids to be formed for youth who have developed thoughts contrary to the existing structure – sentiment – teachings.
I see several potential problems with those changes.
1. There will still be a need for adult Moulvis to lead the new Masjids. Where would these enlightened Moulvis come from and how would it be determined that they would be suitable to lead the new Masjids?
2. New Moulvis and Masjids will be a huge threat to the existing power structure and I don’t see that power being transferred without some strong resistance. In the long run of a few decades, the existing power structure of Moulvis and Masjids would start to whither without the flow of youth into the existing Masjids.
3. If the enlightened youth form a different Point of View – perspective of Islam than what exists within their family – home, how will that be resolved? You are suggesting that parents will grant that freedom to individual interpretation of Islam and Quran to their children and be accepting if it is different than their own.
4. The process of creating individual freedom – thought contrary to what the existing Moulivi structure says will take some time to filter through Pakistani society and from my POV, I don’t think Pakistan has that type of time to spare.
———————————————————–
A recent rally had some fiery speeches by Hafiz Saeed and others. Yet, the Paksitani government did nothing to moderate – control what was said there.
Zaid Hamid and similar talk about retaking the Red Fort (Delhi, India) and the government does nothing to counteract that type of thinking.
Red Fort
So even if the hurdles that I mentioned earlier are safely crossed, there is still a fair amount of Jihadi thought – speech within Pakistani society which will put pressure on the enlightened youth to conform rather than strike out in a new direction.
“US Being Sucked Into Pakistan’s World Of Illusions ” is an apt title of an article in Eurasia Review, to respond to Mirza.
Mirza can blame India all he wants for all their woes but to quote the article
“Peshawar is bleeding. Karachi is bleeding. Balochistan is bleeding. The FATA is out of control. There is a new Great Game on in Pakistani territory with the US intelligence agencies on the one side and Al Qaeda and its associates on the other hunting each other, with the Pakistan Army and the ISI helping both sides in their attempts to kill each other and making money in the process.”
You can read the article here if you’re interested in a summary of the brainwash over the years.
http://www.eurasiareview.com/2010/02/31679-us-being-sucked-into-pakistans.html
Mirza,
Your post is classic example of results of brainwashing. You fail to realize that this is Arab imperialism. Local cultures, people and languages are put to extinction and you don’t see any problem. Luckily there are saner people in your society, like Omar.
I guess the single most contentious point between your brainwashed version of history and generally accepted version of history is “Islam spread by sword”. This is historic fact which you deny. And all you need to do is read Quran properly and you will see it spread by sword. Of course now its spreading by AK47(Somalia, West, North Africa, Thailand, Malaysia, India, Chechenya, Indonesia, etc).
Starting from 1980s that’s what happened in Pakistan.
They made this look great. And started comparing Jews, Christians and Hindus with pigs saying they were inferior.
Why don’t you talk about what happened to non-Muslims in Pakistan(both East and West). They were systematically eliminated. Non-Muslims were about 15% not they are only 5% in Pakistan. Religion of peace indeed.
On the contrary look at West(France, UK), India, Thailand and elsewhere. Muslim number have been increasing for 50 years now. So who is being persecuted here.
This what I call brainwashing. Somehow making Muslims seem like victims, I agree they are victims, of their own religion.
Mirza,
BTW bin Laden and Zawahiri are well educated in Arabic. We know whom they want to decimate.
So you trying to fool us into thinking AQ is somehow separate different from Wahhabism you practice, is a nice try.
Mirza,
Here is whats actually going on. I guess you agree with these kids.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1249393/9-11-bombers-heroes-What-Muslim-children-told-Christian-teacher-forced-job-tolerating-racism.html
Mirza:
“All i want to say is that Pakistanis donot hate America. They hate these Jihadis and AQ as much as any civilized society do, but when you bring india in this equation, creating public opinion against military or ISI is next to impossible to infuse.”
The problem is that Pakistan is NOT anymore a CIVILIZED SOCIETY. If anything it is a heavily MILITARIZED SOCIETY in a CIVIL WAR.
You have had moments of a civilized society and a military war. You lost it.
A militarized society and a military war. Yes, lost it.
Now you will lose this too. Even with all the help from America. Unless you start blaming yourselves, yes Mirza point the finger at yourself, for a change. For to change.
As for India, you can be sure she doesn’t want one sq inch of your badlands or good, if any left. At the same time, you can be sure she’s not going to give you one sq inch of Kashmir–and with your record of mismanaging your territories, putting it mildly, don’t expect an iota of support from the civilized world.
So kindly do the world a favor and get off its back–get a life in this 21C and quit worrying about your maulvis telling you whats right or wrong for your country. Think it out for yourself–grow up!
Now about joining in with the 21C we know you are not Superman so you have to wear your trousers one leg at a time, or your shalwar, whatever, but please do it!
Else be prepared to be patted down as you go through any international airport anytime for the rest of your lives. And then you can wonder why Gates came to India first, since that seems to be your biggest problem.
I think Mirza is entitled to his beliefs and I am glad that he is contributing to a honest discussion by not sanitizing his views. We are witnessing an important chapter in world history and Pakistan is at its epicenter for the moment, at least. We will all see how things unfold in the coming years with great interest.
How I wish Jinnah was still alive so we could all know how he felt about the direction his creation has taken! (I am sure this comment will start a whole new discussion. I’m just expressing my own personal feeling and not trying to open a whole new can of worms).
To bleed India, destroy it, kill hundreds of millions of innocent people in order to convert it into an Islamic state is the PRIMARY aspiration of Pakistan.
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1862650-2,00.html
[M]any south Asian Muslims insist Islamis the one and only force that can bring the [Indian] subcontinent together and return it to pre-eminence as a single whole. “We [Muslims]were the legal rulers of India, and in 1857 the British took that away from us,”
To all gentlemen who responded to my post, I would like to say that you all responded to other aspects than the one i tried to address.
Mr bard207, I am sorry i used this term without realizing that i am using a forum that is not linguistically local.
you are right this is the definition of moulvi. But in daily local language this term is mostly related to negative sense. (e.g. in discussion when other man does not agrees to your point of view, you end the discussion by saying how could you understand you are a moulvi.) Secondly i context of Pakistan this term also refers to a person who has just the knowledge of arabic and does not posses any other knowledge(science etc) least the skills of reasoning. Financially he is also very weak(99% true).
Gentlemen with the current state of affairs in Pakistan, its difficult to oppose any charges that you guys are levying on Pakistan. But i will defend my point that Arabic should be taught.
A certain element (moulvis) gained strength and prominence in Afghan war. To recruit people to fight russians funds were channelized from America, Saudia and Saddam to open madrassas (madrassa means school but i will use madrassa term so as not to confuse it with Pakistan’s schools which are the primary learning centers as has been elsewhere in the world) mostly in rural areas. This select group got to prominence from here and since then are not ready to relinquish that status. The problem is that these madrassas were opened for providing the reading/knowledge of Quran. (for a poor villager it was lucrative as his kids could read Quran.) So the enrollment was bound to be a success. The enrollment in madrassas was mostly of the age of 5 to 12 years and this enrollment was exposed to brainwashing over the next two to three years of learning. And this is exactly what happened.
There was a spill over of these madrassas in urban areas too in different forms. Where young kids go to mosques or other institutes in evening for 30 minutes to one hour for learning arabic. Parents do not want these moulvis to give any knowledge other than of learning arabic. But who could keep a check on that. So shifting this learning to traditional schools would be the best way to replace the moulvi with a well qualified teacher. This is true that for giving Arabic learning mostly same persons(moulvi) would be hired but schools have their checks in place so to a great extent their influence could be curtailed. And secondly when you will really teach them arabic then when grown up these kids won’t be going back for any interpretation.
To cut short, most people of Pakistan want to cut short their kids exposures to these moulvis because they are simply infusing hatred in young minds. And this can be achieved only by disseminating arabic through usual channels of learning.
Currently this group has simply replaced the Russians with america/west as enemy.
Pakistani people do not want to bleed India, as M.Muthuswamy mentioned. I do not want to discuss an Indian issue on this forum.
T-Ruth, yes you are right , in the current scenario we do seem to be a society is disarray. But just because of less than 2% of whole population you cannot generalize that all Pakistanis are bend on taking the world with arms. Its only that these 2% are so savage in their deeds that they have been able to make an impression so deep in our society that we are finding it difficult to contain.
Paul kindly do not get this impression that knowing Arabic means one can not be an extremist. Language is not a factor for extremism.
Paul
You mentioned that “Non-Muslims were about 15% not they are only 5% in Pakistan. Religion of peace indeed.”
Mathematically, percentages are misleading. 15 out of 100 is 15% and 20 out of 400 is 5%. So do interpret that non muslims were exterminated in Pakistan.
Thanks
Mirza
I beg to differ with your POV that shifting instruction in Arabic from Masjids to schools will solve some of the problems in Pakistan.
I have seen varying numbers for literacy in Pakistan between 49% – 55%.
For the moment, I will go with the more favorable percentage of 55%.
That means there is 45% of the population is unable to handle reading & writing in more common languages in Pakistan such as Urdu. Trying to reach further by teaching Arabic as a secondary language in schools when the schools are struggling to handle the basics of teaching the primary is a puzzler.
———————————————————–
Lessons in ‘patriotism’?
…This time, apart from the Shabab-e-Milli and other such ‘religious’ organisations, there was a sequence of banners on Lahore’s Mall Road carrying pictures of Mian Nawaz Sharif and his brother Mian Shahbaz Sharif. Most of them bore the usual inane versification. One banner that caught my eye read “Hindu bania muzammat se nahin murammat se maney ga”
Well we know that if we persecute minority people their reproduction rate will be slower than majority.
Take India and Pakistan. In India hindus and muslims have relatively same growth rate, muslims slightly higher.
And why did number dwindle in Pakistan?
In almost all countries minority numbers grow(or remain stable), only exception is muslim countries.
Mirza,
I agree language is not a factor for extremism. In fact I find Arabic beautiful.
But my objections are
1. Let local cultures and languages live, don’t exterminate them
2. there are not many books translated into Arabic, so mostly Islam spreads by Arabic, not any other ideas.
About Pakistan wanting to bleed India. Well that’s a fact. After USSR withdrawal in 1989 Pakistan’s ISI redirected then out-of-work jihadis(yes jihad was a ‘good’ word back then) towards India, Hamid Gul being behind that. Actually he is on record so many times saying he started the “bleeding process”.
Now in general, I read bin Laden’s background in “Looming tower”. He is as sincere Muslims as one would become. Except for the concept of Takfiri he is a true Muslim. But he did justify 9/11 based on the fact that before his death Mohammad said “let there be no two religions in Arabia” and US forces were there after Gulf War I. So he claims his actions are justified according to Quran and/or Muhammad.
Now, if you are trying to answer if bin Laden is a true muslim or not, you are asking the wrong question, because he is(because he knows Islam well, Arabic is his mother tounge). I don’t think there are many Muslims who practice Islam as closely as bin Laden.
The right question is if he is a moral person or not, which he is not.
Killing 3000 people just because US troops were in Saudi(although they were there on Saudi King’s request), may be in accordance with last words of Mohammad, but immoral.
Mirza,
The extermination process includes
1. Banglasdesh genocide in which killed upwards of 1 million, rapes that produced thousands of war babies.
2. Have you ever wondered dozens of jehadi organizations always target nonmuslims and shias. This is also part of extermination process.
Remember these are not happening as reactions to some events like killing of Sunni Muslims by xians, hindus, sikhs, shias. If they were reactions, though deplorable can be understood. These are happening on theological basis, which is far more dangerous.
I don’t think anyone other than Sunni muslims are killing others on theological basis in the entire world.
Mirza,
Here is an article in the usually PC guardian about Pakistani state sponsoring of violence by Sunnis against everyone else.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/feb/11/pakistan-sunni-shia-violence
Paul and bard207,
I agree with most of your views. But do reserve the right not to agree with all.
Yes 45% illiteracy and the evil crop that has ripe will keep on creating problems.
And Paul i agree that ISI and army is the main culprit.
Gentlemen, your views are not any different than mine except that i still believe that inability in arabic will not end this menace in future decades too.
Thanks
Mirza,
Thank you for responding. I was about to give up checking on this particular discussion thread.
You have a different POV than some of the Pakistani commenters that have participated here in the past.